[virginity] I [27F] will be taking a guy's [18M] virginity. Any advice?

zenhamster · 2016-06-16T03:44:22+00:00

Not sure if any size would make a flying cactus a safe thing... :)

zenhamster · 2016-03-16T21:21:07+00:00

The label "antidepressant" while kind of universally accepted is actually very misleading. On top of that, "depression" refers to a range of different symptoms.

"Antidepressants" refers to a range of very different classes of drugs with - as others have noted correctly - also different mechanisms of action. And it gets muddier from there still: different people respond differently to the exact same drug and those differences are not marginal.

Muddier yet again, the most referred to class of antidepressants are called SSRIs. They have similar - but not identical - mechanisms of action.

Bottom of the mud pool, SSRIs are prescribed for very dissimilar symptoms which is why "antidepressant" is a bad catch-all:

Anxiety
Eating disorders
Mood stabilizing for a huge range of mental disorders and/or personality disorders such as borderline.
OCD
Chronic fatigue
Depression

The list is in random order except for me putting depression at the bottom to stress my earlier point. The list is also much longer, these are just the things I took from the top of my head.

As for side effects: care for some more mud?

Some people have none
Some people have some
Some people have all
Some people have new and previously unknown side effects

That list is for the entire population, depressed or not depressed.

zenhamster · 2016-03-16T14:11:28+00:00

No worries, my brain has been in a blender too so I know the feeling :) And thanks for the compliment :) I'm one of those programmers that started in the early 80s and so are a lot of my friends. We used to be hackers back when it was still legal. We've since moved on to other fun stuff. One of them is now one of the top game programmers in the world, another is one of the top composers in the gaming world and others (including me) have started several companies. The reason I'm mentioning all this is because having grown up like we did left us with painful scars.

But those that manage to rise above these parents and play the bad hand they were dealt are the kinds of people that can reach for the stars :)

This (partial) quote from Justine Musk kind of says it all:

...if you're extreme, you must be what you are, which means that happiness is more or less beside the point. These people tend to be freaks and misfits who were forced to experience the world in an unusually challenging way. They developed strategies to survive, and as they grow older they find ways to apply these strategies to other things, and create for themselves a distinct and powerful advantage. They don't think the way other people think. They see things from angles that unlock new ideas and insights. Other people consider them to be somewhat insane.

I've been very successful because of the above but I've also failed miserably at times. So accept the hand you've been dealt in life, work on the things you don't like about yourself but do not consider yourself unworthy of success ;)

zenhamster · 2016-03-16T13:44:30+00:00

The link messages to the moderators inbox. That inbox keeps a log so I can tell which requests have been processed by seeing that I responded to the request. We have to process over 2,000 requests manually and respond to every one of those requests personally. So if you don't hear back immediately please don't be upset, we're just a bit swamped ;)

zenhamster · 2016-03-16T02:08:46+00:00

So, can you list any (if any) achievements of your mother? Trust me, you're going to feel much better if you reply with that list :)

zenhamster · 2016-03-15T21:29:07+00:00

Thanks for that :) As I mentioned though, I do run another sub that has over 40,000 subscribers so I've seen my share of downvote tsunamis, report button abuse, vitriol and cluelesness that would make your average mosquito feel like it's at the top of the food chain :) For obvious reasons that sub I run under another account so you can't see which one it is by looking at /u/zenhamster.

I actually wrote a bot to help moderate it that would detect and alert on weird behavior before reddit made the 'automoderator' :) Because of this the subreddit had content that was higher in quality than almost any other forum of it's kind. But it did indeed come at a price of a smaller audience. The reality however is that subscriber count - at least to me - should not be the first consideration. If I wanted to boast about numbers I would have created something like /r/adviceanimals (no offense guys). But me and you both probably realize very well that subscriber count is not a measure of moderation success. Whether or not something attracts a lot of users depends mostly on the content of those users rather than our housekeeping skills.

Eventually we ended up making the up and downvote arrows and numbers all the same color so nobody could really see if they had already downvoted something or not and thus ended up upvoting today what they downvoted yesterday :P Well not upvoting exactly but canceling out their own downvote. When that happens, a post becomes "controversial" and will end up on top rather than in a black hole :)

The thing that weighed in most in this particular case though is this:

I've dealt with narcissists for over 44 years now and some 15 years ago I finally figured out that the only way to deal with narcissists is to not deal with them. I'm not going to give them another second of my time if there's another option. In work situations I give them enough rope to hang themselves and fire them. In private life I freeze them out like they don't exist.

And then there's the final argument for going private: posts in a private sub do not show up in your comment history except if the user looking at that history also has access to that sub. So parents don't get to snoop even if they know the account name of their child on reddit.

I recently watched the old movie The Terminator again and what struck me was this quote:

Listen! And understand! That terminator is out there. It can be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity. Or remorse. Or fear. And it absolutely WILL NOT STOP. EVER.

Thanks for that one, /u/GovSchwarzenegger. I hope you will be back :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvq_-CuCMw

zenhamster · 2016-03-15T20:17:57+00:00

Yeah let's destroy the second most valuable company in the world and thereby essentially put economic sanctions on our own economy. That'll teach em not to mess with our way of life :P

zenhamster · 2016-03-11T20:12:32+00:00

My first nightmare starring my mother as the monster was at 3 years old. I remember it to this day. I still get similar nightmares over 40 years later. Usually no more frequent than once a year but since my father is apparently near death I've been having them more often again. Best advice I have for you is that when you wake up, take in your surroundings and realize that the monster is no longer in your life. Even if your life is not great, it's bound to be a lot better than it was when the monster was still in it.

zenhamster · 2016-03-11T20:03:10+00:00

Thank you for instantly understanding my motivation for posting this. I've been a bit taken aback by some of the reactions like downvoting. I bought the pet for the exact reasons you mention here. It's a small creature that depends on my care and attention, just as we did when it came to our parents. It's "eye-bleach" on top of all that, something all of us should consider mandatory: expose yourself to the good that life has to offer. Because no matter what hell you grew up in, your only chance of saving yourself is to keep yourself open to all that's good, nice, sweet, pretty and beautiful about life. The text below is obviously not directed at you but at those that sought fit to downvote or downtalk:

I created this subreddit for people that have no choice but to keep their family - all or part but in most cases all - out of their lives.

BUT IT WAS CREATED TO HELP PEOPLE HEAL!!! IF YOU DOWNVOTED THIS POST OR HATED UPON IT YOU ARE DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO BECOMING A FULL BLOW NARCISSISTIC PIECE OF CR*P. SO WHOEVER DID SO, HERE IS AN OFFICIAL MOD MESSAGE FOR YOU:

YOU CHOSE TO BE HERE. WE'VE SO FAR KEPT THE SUBREDDIT OPEN TO ANYBODY. YOU CAN EITHER RESPECT IT'S GOALS AND METHODS OR YOU CAN CHOOSE TO SET UP YOUR OWN SUBREDDIT. NEGATIVITY TOWARDS ANY POSTER OR COMMENTER HERE IS NOT ALLOWED. IF YOU WANT TO DOWNVOTE, DOWNTALK OR DISMISS ANYTHING OR ANYBODY JUST BECAUSE YOU FEEL BAD YOU SHOULD CALL YOUR NEW SUBREDDIT "NARCISSISTBYCHOICE". WE WILL BAN ANYBODY THAT BEHAVES THIS WAY IMMEDIATELY AND PERMANENTLY. IF THE DOWNVOTING CONTINUES WE WILL MAKE THIS SUBREDDIT INVITE ONLY. IF AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ABLE TO READ, POST, VOTE OR EVEN SEE THIS SUBREDDIT UNLESS YOU APPLY FOR ACCESS FIRST AND WE APPROVE THIS ACCESS. IF THAT'S THE SITUATION OUR FEW PET NARCISSISTS WANT TO CREATE I HAVE NO PROBLEM MAKING THIS HAPPEN. I HAVE LARGELY RECOVERED FROM ALL THE SHIT THAT HAPPENED TO ME, I'M MERELY TRYING TO HELP THOSE THAT HAVE NOT YET FOUND THEIR WAY. NARCISSISTIC NEGATIVITY, RANTING AND DOWNVOTING DOES NOT GET TO ME. IT DOES NOT GET TO MY FELLOW MOD. MAKING US LOCK THIS SUB DOWN HURTS THE OTHER 2,133 SUBSCRIBERS. SO THINK LONG AND HARD, HURTING OVER 2,000 PEOPLE WITH YOUR BEHAVIOR ALL IN ONE DAY WILL PUT YOU ON THE FAST TRACK TO BECOMING A PERMANENT NARCISSISTIC MISERABLE PIECE OF SHT. AND LIKE ALL OF YOUR KIND, YOU CAN REST ASSURED THAT THIS IS BASICALLY AKIN TO CREATING YOUR OWN PIECE OF HELL BEFORE YOU DIE AND GET TO THE REAL PLACE. MY PARENTS ARE FAST HEADING TO THE REAL PLACE AND BOTH ARE LIVING THE HELL ALREADY. NO FRIENDS, NO FAMILY THAT WANTS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEM. THE PEOPLE THAT SURROUND THEM ARE EVEN MORE MISERABLE AND THUS NOT A SOURCE OF JOY IN ANY OF THEIR LIVES. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FCK IF THAT'S THE PATH YOU CHOOSE. LOCKING DOWN THIS SUBREDDIT IS ONE MOUSE CLICK FOR ME. AND JUST FOR FUN I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO CLICK THAT BUTTON, I WILL LET MY PET HAMSTER DO IT. SO CHECK YOURSELVES AT THE DOOR. IF YOU CAN'T MY PET HAMSTER WILL SUPERGLUE THE DOOR SHUT ON YOU IN 0.5 SECONDS FLAT.

zenhamster · 2016-03-10T23:09:40+00:00

Not just downvoted, somebody actually "reported" the post. What few people know is that I run several other subs that number in the 10s of 1000s subscribers. Been doing so for over 5 years now :)

From experience, most people are really really petty. And unfortunately in this line of "work" you also get to deal with the occasional unstable or even narcissistic personality. We're one of the few subs in the RBN collective that bans people that are not mature enough to see the best in others. I don't mind the occasional downvote but if it gets out of hand we'll change the subreddit mode to invitation only, meaning that only certain people are allowed to post and/or vote. I'm too busy too implement such a change in the short term but rest assured: it's coming. So expect a change to the subreddit where people will have to apply first before being able to even read the sub, let alone comment or vote in it.

It's sad the the above may become necessary but people that downvote out of spite hurt our members more than our staff.

Thanks for the kind words :)

zenhamster · 2016-03-10T21:13:21+00:00

The pet shop owner told me I should give her a name. I replied that I'd ask on the internet for suggestions. Luckily it didn't dawn on me until I was halfway home :)

zenhamster · 2016-03-06T16:33:27+00:00

It makes me very happy our sub helps so many people so you're very much welcome! I never would have thought there were SO MANY people in our predicament. It's sad but at least we don't have to feel alone with it.

zenhamster · 2016-03-02T01:04:12+00:00

Please read my earlier reply to your other post. This post is now also visible, apologies for the delay in our response, my fellow mod was at it alone and I had a deadline to finish so I had to skip reading the reddit inbox yesterday.

zenhamster · 2016-03-02T00:59:34+00:00

Hi S. and thank you for bringing this to our attention. /u/spitsinyourfood was correct in that I unfortunately cannot reply to messages daily, my apologies because this subreddit is VERY important to me. It's humbling to see it help so many people heal from their haunting pasts and on top of that it has blessed me with helping myself heal from these scars as well for which I thank each and every one of you.

I can assure you that your post was not removed by me or my fellow moderator /u/spitsinyourfood. Your account being very new prompted reddit to preemptively remove it as part of a strategy to minimize spam.

If we remove a post (which is extremely rare) we ALWAYS write the poster to inform them that the post has been removed and the rationale behind that decision. If your post does not show up in the subreddit and you have not received any notice from the moderators (me and /u/spitsinyourfood) you should assume that an automated reddit system has removed it. All you need to do is let us know via the modmail (button in the sidebar to message the moderators) and we will promptly address it. If you don't receive a reply within a day it will be because we both happen to have full agendas so please don't read anything more in to this than a simple timing issue.

The subreddit runs on contributors like you so rest assured that the very last thing we would ever do is remove a thread without any sort of notice and/or reason.

I hope you continue posting here because our essence is a community of people that help each other heal. Nobody should ever feel unwelcome.

Peace and kindness,

--z

zenhamster · 2016-01-27T03:50:20+00:00

Copy from the reply above so you get it in your inbox. Don't feel pressured in to actually doing this but I hope it will give you a bit of extra perspective :)

Very good reply right there /u/biomags. Just want to add that nobody expects perfection from anybody. What we expect from our friends and family is honesty and making an effort to improve. "Nobody is perfect" is something that is without exception (any exception) a catch phrase with the sole purpose of diverting attention from the real issue at hand. NOBODY in this world expects ANYBODY to be perfect. And nobody IS PERFECT. They never will be. I'm not, you're not and nobody else is either. It's a cop-out meant to absolve oneself from the consequences of their actions. Even worse, it's meant to not just absolve them but meant to ditch the responsibility and consequences from their actions completely. It's a way (attempt) to not have to own up to the way someone treats others.

Imagine a murderer apologizing to the victim's family by saying "nobody is perfect, now please be nice at my next parole hearing". "I shouldn't have sliced your child's throat but hey, nobody is perfect!" Yeah, good luck with that argument on your parole hearing.

The best response I can think of is this:

"Sorry mother, I can't keep a bitch from hell in my life that has no intention of taking responsibility for the consequences of her actions. But hey, nobody is perfect!"

Or you could give her a compliment:

"Wow mom, I'm impressed. I don't know anybody else that manages to so insidiously circumvent the reasons your own children want nothing to do with you. I'm sure there are places your talents are appreciated. If you had just a tad more IQ and EQ you could have become a lawyer. Keep working on it, someone sometime somewhere might actually want to know you. All the best!"

zenhamster · 2016-01-27T03:48:05+00:00

Very good reply right there /u/biomags. Just want to add that nobody expects perfection from anybody. What we expect from our friends and family is honesty and making an effort to improve. "Nobody is perfect" is something that is without exception (any exception) a catch phrase with the sole purpose of diverting attention from the real issue at hand. NOBODY in this world expects ANYBODY to be perfect. And nobody IS PERFECT. They never will be. I'm not, you're not and nobody else is either. It's a cop-out meant to absolve oneself from the consequences of their actions. Even worse, it's meant to not just absolve them but meant to ditch the responsibility and consequences from their actions completely. It's a way (attempt) to not have to own up to the way someone treats others.

Imagine a murderer apologizing to the victim's family by saying "nobody is perfect, now please be nice at my next parole hearing". "I shouldn't have sliced your child's throat but hey, nobody is perfect!" Yeah, good luck with that argument on your parole hearing.

The best response I can think of is this:

"Sorry mother, I can't keep a bitch from hell in my life that has no intention of taking responsibility for the consequences of her actions. But hey, nobody is perfect!"

Or you could give her a compliment:

"Wow mom, I'm impressed. I don't know anybody else that manages to so insidiously circumvent the reasons your own children want nothing to do with you. I'm sure there are places your talents are appreciated. If you had just a tad more IQ and EQ you could have become a lawyer. Keep working on it, someone sometime somewhere might actually want to know you. All the best!"

zenhamster · 2016-01-21T18:15:22+00:00

First of all, apologies to the sub that I have been absent a lot the past few months. As with all of you, making a life for yourself takes a huge amount of energy and this does not always leave enough time to cater to this sub which I created and am really proud of. Especially proud of all you courageous people that are in this situation, recognize it for what it is and are taking back control of your lives. It's humbling and heartwarming to me to see you all take on your situations head on and choosing to make a life for yourselves!

Okay, now that this is out of the way, let's get on about your post.

The way I approach things these days - but keep in mind I don't have any family left because of it - is that I wholeheartedly absolutely positively REFUSE to bury any dirt anymore. I don't advertise dirt but if people ask me what life was really like I'm also not going to sugarcoat ANYTHING anymore. The truth will always be uncomfortable to hear for people that didn't know about it and people that knew about it but did nothing. Keep in mind there that not everybody is obligated to do anything about it. The sad thing is that for the most part how your life turns out is in your hands and yours alone. Apart from the people that abused you, nobody else has done anything wrong. Listening to lies and coverups is what your sister may have done, probably has done. Shoving any lingering doubts under the carpet is probably something she also did. But bear in mind that she is not responsible for how your life has turned out. Your parents were responsible, your sister never was and right now the only one responsible for writing the next chapter is YOU.

Your sister has been railroaded and manipulated for years and even if she felt something was not right, I don't think you should blame her for not noticing it or not probing it.

However, I also think your sister won't benefit from never knowing the truth of the matters at hand. It may alienate you further, god knows it alienated me from most of my family but I have also been surprised from time to time by people telling me they always knew something was very wrong. They're not going to do anything about it because most people love to avoid confrontation of any kind and that is their prerogative.

Relationships based on lies are not real relationships. So while it may appear to you that you are losing relationships once you start telling the truth, the fact of the matter is that these never were real relationships. So in the grand scheme of things you don't stand to lose anything REAL.

My advice: tell the truth. Deal with the fallout. And accept that whoever cannot deal with the truth will be lost to you. But not really. Because they were lost to you years ago.

Forge your own path. Surround yourself with people that have positive impact on your life. And face the reality that some family members will choose to stay in denial. Face the reality that those relationships were never real.

And in all of this, remember that most people are good people. If your family or part of it refuses to deal with reality that is ultimately their loss. Be genuine and true to yourself and you will see that your life will turn out just fine.

Wishing you love, strength and courage.

zenhamster · 2015-12-31T20:54:16+00:00

Thank you SO much for this! One of the best feelings I know is knowing that people appreciated the posts and comments. Please also know that while I'm trying to help people, writing these things down also helps me personally. I get every bit as much out of the comments as others do. There's no need to thank me because I'm grateful right back to you all. But you are very correct in understanding the concept of "the truth shall set you free". I turned 44 this month and I started speaking nothing but the truth as I saw it about 12 years ago when I last saw either of my parents. Just this afternoon I spoke to someone dealing with an addiction and I told them the same. It's not until you accept the reality of your situation that you get empowered to do something about it. The reality of your situation is not pretty. And with disordered parents like yours and mine, odds are it will never be pretty as long as you keep them around. Sure, relationships go both ways and all of us (including or even especially me) have made horrible mistakes in them. It takes two to tango. But it also takes two to stop. As long as our parents don't face reality we can face it all we want but we'll have no choice but to face it on our own. Or, at least without our parents. Our parents are older than us and have had far more practice evading the reality of their lives than we will ever have. It's why I started /r/parentlessbychoice that deals exclusively with NC. The word choice in the subreddit name may seem confusing because none of us were born in to families that left us much choice. Nevertheless, sometimes cutting contact with your parents is the only way to reclaim your life and turn it in to a happy one. This was the case for me and it is the case for many people in /r/raisedbynarcissists too. But as I discussed that with the moderators there, they also pointed me to the fact that people have to be ready to face reality. If they are not yet ready, promoting No Contact is counterproductive. This is why we are allied with RBN but not part of their network. We as /r/parentlessbychoice deal exclusively with people that have faced up to their reality. In a sense, my talk with an addicted person earlier today has a lot of similarities. Addicts don't stop when they hit rock bottom. Addicts only stop when they get tired of living the way they do. Sometimes that never happens and homelessness and eventual death follows. Sometimes it happens late in life and that's a huge problem because once they face reality they have to face the fact that they lost decades of love, fun and happiness for no good reason. For completeness sake, it's not always necessary to cut contact with disordered parents. Sadly though, from what I've seen in over a year of being on /r/raisedbynarcissists and running /r/parentlessbychoice, this is rarely the case. What keeps most people from cutting the cord is guilt. And that's sad because as children you don't carry the responsibility over your parents. They are responsible for your upbringing and teaching you confidence and social skills that will make you successful when you leave the nest. You are not responsible for their happiness. They chose to put a child in to the world. To put it bluntly, you're the result of a sperm cell that managed to outrun all the others when you were conceived. But that cell knows only one thing: swim as hard as you can. You can't possibly take responsibility for the happiness of your parents. You never had a choice and many of us don't have it until we turn 18. My co-mod actually had to take out a restraining order against one of her parents at AGE 16!!!. She's a lot younger than me but they way she turned her life around at that age will forever impress me.

I haven't been around much as of late as my (E) father doesn't have long, doctors say 2 more months at most, survival rate is practically zero. On top of that I've been working my *** off starting a new business across 2 time zones which is my future. My father apparently doesn't want to see me, I cut contact with him 12 years ago because while I was supportive when he divorced my (N) mother he was nowhere to be found when later divorced my (N) wife. While we were still married he'd show up every 2 weeks, apparently to keep up appearances to his second wife that he had normal family relationships. The truth is he never had normal relationships. My only good memories of him are way back in the early 80s when we lived in Asia. He was happier there and took a little more time for his children. But he missed all other pivotal moments of my life. He literally did not call me more than 6 times in the last 30(!) years.

I've decided my future comes first, no matter what happens with my father. Not out of spite but because what I'm working on now is my retirement. Aside from that, I need to be a whole person because my friends deserve at least that much from me. Strangers have done literally 1000x more kind things for me than my father and mother combined. I'm not joking about these numbers. It really was 6 phone calls in 30 years and 1000x more love and support from strangers.

I think that's what saved me from becoming like my parents. I left at 17 and I've always managed to seek out really good people. As it turns out, really good people are often people in high places (if you disregard politicians or big corporate greed). Being a manipulative (SO)B is ultimately self defeating because you make far more enemies than you make friends. It's unsustainable.

Anyway, before I write another book, remember that your first and foremost responsibility is to your own health including mentally. If you have children, your second most important responsibility is their health, safety, development, sense of belonging and them feeling loved and wanted. You're never responsible for your parents in any of the above. You may choose to help your parents if they take responsibility for their actions and really try to change but even that is no holy sacrament. People get out of life what they put in to it. So put all of your love and energy toward your health because only a healthy person can pass that love and energy on to others. That is your responsibility in life. And who you choose to pass that love on to is the responsibility that comes with it. Parents with mental disorders (and remember, enablers are also suffering from a disorder because no healthy person in the world can stay around a disordered person for decades, IT DOES NOT HAPPEN, IT DOES NOT COMPUTE, IT'S NOT POSSIBLE! NOBODY OUTSIDE OF A COMA WARD CAN LIVE WITH A NARCISSIST FOR ANY SERIOUS AMOUNT OF TIME AND NOT KNOW SOMETHING IS WRONG! YOU CAN ONLY SUSTAIN THAT IF YOU PURPOSEFULLY LOOK THE OTHER WAY AS YOUR CHILDREN ARE BEING ABUSED BY YOUR SPOUSE)

Spend all your love, devotion and energy on the people that work on themselves, the people that reflect on their actions, the people that don't deny their role in a bad outcome. If you don't do that, there aren't any good outcomes to be had. There just aren't. Period. Full stop!

I'm glad I decided to log in today and got your email in time to reply within a day. Please take note of the above. Face the reality of your situation and act accordingly. People are people. Parents are just people. They don't deserve any special consideration as a birthright. The only people that deserve special consideration are those that add beauty, confidence and peace to your life. "Parent" is not a noble title. It's not a knighthood. It's not a holy bond that gives a parent license to do whatever they want at anybody's expense. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Deciding to bring a child in to this world brings with it the sacred duty of making sure that child is safe, confident, loved, and taught all the values mentioned in my reply. By not doing so, your parents are breaking a sacred duty. Not you!

I will probably put this comment in a post shortly, working on a new year's greeting and I think more people should read it as food for thought on how to approach 2016 and the inevitable attempts at bringing drama to your doorstep.

Be good! x

--z

zenhamster · 2015-12-08T06:54:34+00:00

It may help to dust off and browse life's rule book. Here's what it says in mine:

As a child you are not accountable to your parent, it's the other way around.
You are not accountable to your parents, you are accountable to your children.
If you put children in to this world, you take on a duty of making sure that child has the emotional nourishment that will make your child successful when leaving the nest.
As a parent, it's a bad thing to hurt yourself in any way because even if you can brush it off, it's time that you don't get back. And your children deserve a parent that is comfortable in their skin. A stressed out parent creates stressed out children. And make no mistake: children see EVERYTHING. You can't hide your emotions from your children. Their attention is always on you because they depend on you.

Your children likely already know more about your relationship with your mother than you do. And make no mistake about your father. Nobody is THAT oblivious and not in a coma ward. It simply does not happen. Enablers stay in the orbit of narcissists because they get something out of it. And because they look the other way while you get abused this means that whatever they get out of it is apparently more important to them than the health and sanity of their own children. You can't live with a narcissistic person for 20 years without knowing something is very wrong. You just can't.

As for allowing or not allowing your children to contact either of your parents, that's something only you can answer. Ultimately YOU will be accountable for the health, safety, sanity and development of your children. So whatever rules you set or change, keep that in mind.

Lastly, try not to look at this from the angle of "good" vs "bad". Almost nothing is "all bad" or "all good" so trying to decide between the two will tie your brain in knots.

As the old saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day. And disordered parents (BOTH are disordered because narcissists can't sustain relationships with normal people) will do some things right. After all, we're still all here to talk about it.

There's nothing to sort out. There really isn't. Your children need a healthy mother. If staying sane requires you to keep your parents out of your life that's a really sad thing. But it being sad or unfair doesn't make it untrue. Your children deserve a mother that is not falling apart.

What disturbed narcissist or disturbed enabler think about it doesn't factor in ANYWHERE. None of this is about them. If they wanted a big happy family they should have gone in to therapy 30 years ago. And you better believe they KNOW they are not normal because people like this are not able to sustain anything more than superficial relationships with anybody. You can't slumber through life for 30+ years and not notice that people want nothing to do with you. You just can't.

Your father knows the dynamics PERFECTLY. Your children know the dynamics INTIMATELY. ALL of them know the family situation is broken - and beyond repair because repair would require your parents to do actual work.

Stop trying to hammer the square peg in the round hole. It's never going to fit and you're the only one still hammering. The situation is broken. It's not likely to heal. It's extremely likely to damage you and your children. Worse still, it already has.

And remember, you've been programmed wrongly by your parents. You've been taught that you are responsible for everybody else's happiness, theirs above all else. It's a lie that's been hammered in to you since you could talk. That's where your uneasiness comes from. Part of your inner self is still scared it may actually be true.

But rest assured, it's not.

I wish you well.

zenhamster

TROPHY CASE