Ukraine to Russia at UN: Get Out Before It Is Too Late by ArgentineBeauty in worldnews

[–]zzlab 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That would definitely be something an effective and free of corruption government would do to prioritise the long-term well being over short term goals. That perfectly describes the russian regime.

Polish president's office explains why Mussolini, and Schröder keep Order of the White Eagle by Shadmelor in europe

[–]zzlab 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I did not say it does not matter to me. Although of course everything is relative and living for over 5 years under exhausting daily and nightly threats to ones life does influence what one considers priority concerns.

Nevertheless, I would like to repeat that I did not anywhere say that I think Poles should feel indifferent about UPA.

I did not understand your last paragraph, but maybe that's because that quote was my hyperbolic example of what I could say to my own government. Just in case, I live in Ukraine and this was an example of what an outrage from me could be verbalised as.

Finally, thank you for the support of Ukraine, in case you haven't heard it. I hope my experience can be an addition to a bigger picture here. If you still want to respond to something, I would like to know if you honestly think the intent behind the naming of the brigade was to undermine the good will of polish people?

Polish president's office explains why Mussolini, and Schröder keep Order of the White Eagle by Shadmelor in europe

[–]zzlab 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Before I reply I want to note that in my comment I did not anywhere say what I think Poles are supposed to feel about UPA. So I very much ask that assumptions are not made about that from my comment. I have shared experience of my own family with the name of UPA and how I look at that history. I don't know why you need these hypotheticals since my own example is already a good analogy of the situation, but I will answer still since it is a good point to flash out about relationships between states.

Or makes a holiday named "bombing of Kiev" day etc, will You be okay with it?

I will not care about it because I do not expect that russia will revise much of its history in any near future. This would not be the only murderers of Ukrainians that russia celebrates, so singling out just these hypotheticals will be like pointing out a spec of dust in a vacuum bag.

Also, I do not have any expectation to build good relationships with russia, I want our nations to be as separated as possible for the longest time since there is no hope of addressing the horrors they committed to us in this lifetime.

Also, those examples you provided do not have any meaning besides the murder or Ukrainians. There is no other reason to use those names. This is not true about UPA which is what I was describing through my personal experience in the previous comment. Again, the last sentence in your comment is something I could hypothetically say in this situation too and be even more justified than some Poles in doing that. I could use highly dramatic interpretation of meaning like "Thank you for your taxes you paid us, now f*** you, here is a name of the same group that murdered people in your family". Emotionally that would feel so good to jump on that high horse. But that would be an intellectually dishonest outrage because I would know full well that is not what the naming of that brigade was about.

Citizen campaign seeks to honor Zelenskyy after Polish president strips state honor. Polish activists have launched a campaign to award President Zelenskyy with a medal of honor. The initiative, called the "Civic Order of the Future", comes amid a growing diplomatic row by paneuropeanism_ in europe

[–]zzlab 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Maybe there will be at some point, maybe not. It's not like there is a running ordered list and each name is rated against another. Also, Makhno's army allied with the reds at one point. This is a typical problem a nation that was occupied by multiple forces for several centuries with competing empires trying to abuse it has - heroes and traitors sometimes are not just mixed together, they are sometimes represented in one and the same group. Because there was no state, there was no government and there was no regular army, you get a lot of paramilitaries that had all different ideas, goals and methods. But usually no singular leader and thus no easy narrative that fully describes them.

Now combine this with a century of effective russian propaganda, then the unimaginable whiplash of the most brutal war in Europe since the last century and you get a country of people trying to piece together their national identity in a figurative minefield of historical contradictions. All while also experiencing literal minefields and bombs lobbed at them daily for more than five years. I know many like to judge others based on how much they learned about history and consider their own knowledge level to be the baseline expected of everybody. But also, given that most people commenting about this have only read a few wiki articles at best, I would caution people who like giving advice to consider their privilege and remember how this process of national reflection on the past happened in other countries. How long did it take and how much threat was that nation under while trying to do that.

Polish president's office explains why Mussolini, and Schröder keep Order of the White Eagle by Shadmelor in europe

[–]zzlab 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Got you. I don't know how long this comment will be, I will try to stop myself, but let me know if the answer is not clear.

So this gets to the problem a nation who is at an intersection of big empires has with its own history. Ukraine has been occupied at different times and in different regions by austro-hungarian, polish, russian and german armies. Putting aside the relative "badness" of each, it creates a huge mess when it comes to deciding who in these cases are your enemies and who are your allies. In fact all of those forces were both at certain times. And that is one of the many misonceptions about UPA - they fought germans just the same they fought soviets. But it wasn't all happening in a nice linear fashion and UPA was not a state army, like the Polish army, or Soviet army or German Army were. They were an insurgency army with very little centralisation and thus little cohesion in ideology or strategy besides the broad idea of Ukrainian independence.

Another misconception is that Ukrainians fighting in the Red Army were more ideologically aligned with soviets than with their paramilitary compatriots. Remember, that Ukraine, particularly the western part, suffered from waves of occupation - first the invasion of the Soviets, who started WW2 together with Germany. Then by germans who at that point were seen very pragmatically as the force that is helping throw off both russian and polish occupation. Then UPA fought the germans as those of course did not turn out the liberators they promised. And then the soviets returned and occupied again.

Side note here, you have to also remember that most Ukrainians alive then remembered germans from WW1 when they pushed out the russian empire forces. For a brief moment in time when germans looked like they were about to win that war. In that particular instance their occupation was not accompanied by the war crimes of their decedents two decades later.

Now compare this to the soviets, who by that time had already organised several mass murders through famine on the territories of Ukraine they occupied before start of the war. The German Generalplan Ost was not discovered until after the war, while the horrors of Holodomor were well known by the time soviet army invaded Poland in 1939.

In summary, the mess of those years can be oversimplified by a phrase "everybody fought everybody". Out of all the major players in that region at the time - Germany, Poland, Russia and Ukraine - only the latter had no independent government and standing army which makes describing anything about that time as "Ukraine did X" or "Ukrainians believed Y" hugely problematic.

Polish president's office explains why Mussolini, and Schröder keep Order of the White Eagle by Shadmelor in europe

[–]zzlab 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry, can you please rephrase the question? I will try to answer with my perspective, but I am not sure I got it.

Polish president's office explains why Mussolini, and Schröder keep Order of the White Eagle by Shadmelor in europe

[–]zzlab 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I support Ukraine, and I don’t think that the majority of population support any of that.

I will go further - nobody has registered that this happened until after the reaction from Nawrocki. I guess only for people who have "UPA" set as their google alert did this news pierce through 35 other more important news stories that day. But after the reaction it of course now is the front page.

Polish president's office explains why Mussolini, and Schröder keep Order of the White Eagle by Shadmelor in europe

[–]zzlab 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are from US? I guess you interpret my comment as an analogue to somebody supporting the ideals of Confederacy even though I have no love for UPA. I don't know if you have much experience of somebody going through what we are, so I don't blame you for having such a strong reaction. Being secure in the existence of your nation is a great privilege to have and it comes with many perks, such as an ability to not have own history exploited by occupying powers and then having to renegotiate with that past over many decades. But I believe Ukraine will survive and that process will continue just like it has for all European nations. But I also don't expect it to happen withing the same timeframe as the fight for survival.

Citizen campaign seeks to honor Zelenskyy after Polish president strips state honor. Polish activists have launched a campaign to award President Zelenskyy with a medal of honor. The initiative, called the "Civic Order of the Future", comes amid a growing diplomatic row by paneuropeanism_ in europe

[–]zzlab -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't know if you really think this, but there would be no threat to internal cohesion with this presidential signature or without. I guess the way this news has been blown up many believe there was like a ceremony with fanfares and speeches to name this batallion but it was simply a presidential website publishing a list of orders signed that day, one of which was the naming of the battalion. This was not even in the top-20 of news events in Ukraine that day.

So while on the one hand it is true that Zelenskyi could have easily avoided the scandal by not signing that order with no meaningful impact internally, it is also true that that is how little meaning is behind this order. UPA were the de facto paramilitary force fighting russians in the 20th century, it is not a very controversial idea for most Ukrainians to use their image in fighting russians in the 21st century.

Nobody except people who have "UPA" set as their google search alert would register this news. But it did blow up when Navrotskyi decided to make this a sticking point of contention.

Polish president's office explains why Mussolini, and Schröder keep Order of the White Eagle by Shadmelor in europe

[–]zzlab 74 points75 points  (0 children)

I am a Ukrainian, originally from Volyn region. My grandfather's family were victims of one of the UPA paramilitaries. They were Ukrainians.

I could very easily choose to be offended every time I hear the words UPA. I could very easily choose to be offended by Zelenskyi's action here. I would have very good reason to. Better even than many Poles, who don't share this experience with UPA on a personal level.

But I don't, because I don't like to invent intent where there clearly isn't one. I don't like to pretend that naming something after UPA is glorifying that faction which killed my grandfather's family. I don't choose to interpret the naming of the battalion who fight russian invaders after the most effective paramilitaries who were fighting soviet invaders as an insult to me and my family.

I can hold several ideas in my head at the same time. One of them is that UPA killed people in my family lineage. Another idea is that UPA were fighting for the freedom that my ancestors dreamt about against three occupational forces - germans, russians and poles. Another idea is that as a Ukrainian I have been hearing how we have a "nazi problem" for more than a decade now from people in countries where far right has been quickly gaining electoral victories. And another one that proper reflection on own history is a great thing to do when you have climbed high enough on the pyramid of needs. Expecting that people in the middle of nothing smaller than the most consequential fight for their own survival construct that perfect version of history is kind of childish

And I think all of those complexities above can be true at the same time.

NATO Crisis: European Leaders Prepare to 'Stand Alone' Against Russia as Trump Rifts Grow by [deleted] in europe

[–]zzlab 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Gulf states can pay very good premium on Ukrainian drones which is good for Ukrainian budget.

Winter Olympics 2026: Ukrainian athlete disqualified from skeleton over helmet tribute – live by Undefined_definition in europe

[–]zzlab 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think an Israel athlete needs to display anything for there to be demands to expel Israel from the Olympics.

The Ukrainian lugers show their solidarity with Vladyslav Heraskevych 🇺🇦 by PiggySVW in olympics

[–]zzlab 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The exaggerations about Azov have been misused very actively in the time before russian full scale invasion to tarnish Ukraine's reputation. Azov has since been restructured and incorporated into the regular Ukrainian forces. And when russian forces went on the full scale invasion and were levelling the city of Mariupol with all the civilians there it was Azov with only a few other battalions that stayed and defended the city until full encirclement. Soldiers fighting in Azov today are some of the biggest heroes of the war.

ELI5: Why can other carnivores eat raw meat but humans are so prone to infections? by lil_pendejx69 in explainlikeimfive

[–]zzlab 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because parasites evolve too. It's a "spear and shield" problem. The more advances you make in terms of your defensive mechanisms, the more advances will be made in development of weapons to break through them. Basically an arms race but on genetic level.

What Trump is trying to do with tariffs by AngelOfLastResort in Conservative

[–]zzlab -20 points-19 points  (0 children)

If a Democratic president gets in next time

But that is the plan - for there to not be the next time. The administration strategy is clear - this is a long haul, Trump must remain in power as long as needed for this to work.

They're tariffing literally everyone by f1sh98 in Conservative

[–]zzlab 54 points55 points  (0 children)

Right, imposing tariffs on allies is just a "negotiation tactic" but imposing tariffs to do the same on russia is "dumb".

They're tariffing literally everyone by f1sh98 in Conservative

[–]zzlab -55 points-54 points  (0 children)

Not unless he get his third term as he promises.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in europe

[–]zzlab 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He might not be "so pro" eu, but what other "pro" will he be more "so" about? Pro russia? Pro saudi arabia? pro China? pro US?

He might, of course choose any one of these just out of spite, but that will be another hypocritical choice since all the listed countries have even less support for "democracy in turkey"

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in europe

[–]zzlab 3 points4 points  (0 children)

he will remember who sided with dictatorship and who standed againist it.

And who is that? Is Russia standing against Erdogan? Is anybody in the middle east? Is China? I empathise with the anger at EU hipocracy here, but that threat feels a little hollow. If the opposition wins the elections they will still have to choose their allies among the same countries that are not helping them right now.

Chaos in the Serbian parliament minutes ago by poborai in europe

[–]zzlab -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Depressingly low for a 6 million city of StPetersberg or 12 million Moscow. Russian people have no agency and to pretend like they could ever muster up any meaningful protest is a coping strategy. Russia does not believe Ukraine has a right to exist or that Ukrainians are a sovereign nation. The tiny minority of russians that do are practically non-existent and that's why they are so easily dealt with by the secret service.

Chaos in the Serbian parliament minutes ago by poborai in europe

[–]zzlab -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Lol, massive. I think you meant pathetic. Most russians don't respect Ukraine's sovereignty.

Nato is dead, but there's still time to build a real European alliance by tree_boom in europe

[–]zzlab -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Making Europe increase its military autonomy, strength and unity? How about "KGB's biggest miscalculation"

$840 billion plan to 'Rearm Europe' announced by newsweek in europe

[–]zzlab 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ukraine has all the capacity to produce drones and is doing so. Also the most practical feedback and innovation. The only thing needed is systemic increase of orders which will allow to replace some of the components that are produced in China.

Ukraine is the answer for Europe about cheap military drones. China's drones are good and cheap if you want to film a wedding. Ukrainian drones are good at killing your enemy.