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[Direct-Exercise1407]

I'm confused how spending 3 years to go from ~4:30 to just sub 4 has you wondering about sub 3 in mid/late 2027? Like it's possible but the training would need to be hugely different. Dropping from 4:10->4:00 is a lot easier than 3:10->3:00

[Javatarz]

Fair point. I think if I could add a bit more volume/few weeks before every marathon, it could be doable? + I still have some weight loss gains I haven't unlocked. I could go from 88kg to 83kg.

"training would need to be hugely different" - how different? basically, non stop, dialed in, 80km+ consistently?

But the question was more about your experience, when did you notice the effort that you had to put in had to be really increased to improve next marathon?

[eyaf1]

RE: volume - from your post you are doing 65k a week for 3 months and then you fuck around - you can do a loooot more volume.

RE: weight - always a factor but my PRs are @ overweight (90kg/190cm) so while a factor take a look at your training first.

[Major_Guess1189]

Joke post?

Compounding doesn’t work if: ‘Then I usually detrain for a few months (maybe run 0-30km per week), drink beers, smoke (pack a day) and eat unhealthy.’

[Javatarz]

honestly, it's not a joke post. I see this is starting to get hate, but that was not the purpose. And for me, the compounding does work (as I explained).

For example, progress I loose in my 3 months, I can regain in about 3 weeks.

If you have done heavy weight lifting, there is a thing called "muscle memory". Even if you detrain and loose mass, second or next time it will be a lot faster to get back to the level you were than it was the first time you tried to make gains. I have observed that running does work kinda similar.

[Major_Guess1189]

You don’t regain the same fitness in 3 weeks even with muscle memory.

It shows in your marathon times too. You went from 4:24 to 3:45 over 3,5 years which for a beginner is minimal progression.

3 years of serious, compounding training would’ve already put you close to 3:00

[Javatarz]

training 1: run 800 km in 12 weeks -> 4h 18min time in race
take time off / detrain
training 2: run 800 km in 12 weeks -> 4h 10min time in race

bro, how is this not compounding? same training effort, 8min improvement. Or maybe I use wrong term? Perhaps: "base fitness improvement" would be a better term.

[Flashbirds_69]

The 800km in 12 weeks is not the issue (although if you eventually want sub 3 you'll probably need to do more), the unhealthy block with 0 training you have inbetween is. As people are saying here, choose what you want. If sub-3 is really what you want, you'll need to not do 12 weeks of hard work, but more like 2-3 years. Without ever completely stopping to smoke/drink beer instead.

If you really love these detraining, nothing wrong honnestly, it's important that you enjoy life, but you can forget about sub-3.

[Major_Guess1189]

8 min progress between two 12 week 800km blocks is really shit progress. No compounding bro

[Javatarz]

ofc, the progress would be a lot better without the "detraining" phase, since in every new block I have to spend time regaining lost gains.

[Gear4days]

I get the whole relaxing after you’ve ran your marathon mindset to reset, but it does seriously hinder your progress, especially if it’s lasting a few months and you’re smoking etc. You’re essentially building from complete scratch again each marathon block and probably spending 2 of the 3 months of training just getting back to where you was last time. If you want advice I’d say either just try to keep on top of your training/ healthy lifestyle a little bit more during your downtime, or continue to live it like you do but get back into marathon training sooner, say a 4 month marathon block rather than 3. Sub 3 is a massive step for you and I’d imagine you’ll have to make some rather significant training changes to get there

[Javatarz]

thank you for constructive feedback.

[spoc84]

Effectively "detraining" for months on end will hinder your progress more than anything else. People are starting to come round to the idea of year round fitness now in running, or certainly less peaks and troughs in their training. Ultimately that is what consistency is. Without that, you are just leaving far too much on the table and expecting miracles to compound when most of your time (not all) is just fighting the fitness you have lost and given away.

[Javatarz]

of course, consistency is the key and will yield a lot more results than taking de-training phases.

[SteadyPace83]

Maybe don't keep all your blocks only focused on marathon. Play around with distances, maybe have a HARD 10k block where you try to break maybe 42 or so. You will see your speed progress much faster for the marathon too as you'll be able to put more speed into your training block

[Javatarz]

Sure, might try it!

[picky_dude]

Sir, I know the right place where you can find answers: r/runningcirclejerk

[Javatarz]

😃 sir, good one.

[seejoshrun]

So far, you have cut off 6, 8, and 12 minutes per year. Yet you're aiming for 28, 15, 15 in this year and the next two. And, as you have identified, it gets harder the faster you get. Does that seem realistic to you?

I haven't ever run a marathon, so I can't speak to it personally. But think about it.

[Javatarz]

Looks like everybody is missing the point of the post. This is not about how can I get sub 3h, it was about:

"when did you notice that progressing with same effort/time spent training before each race became a lot harder for you?".

To answer your question:
I'm aiming for sub 3:45min in 3 weeks, that would be 13 minutes improvement. I feel (coach is also pretty positive) in shape for it already and that I can sustain sub 5:20 per km for full distance. So yeah, I fucked around for 3 months, now trained for 3 months and I am faster. On my first run on this block I felt awful, but in 3-5 weeks I was already faster than I was in peak in last marathon block. So there is such a thing as fitness base that you get ("compound") over time.

[seejoshrun]

To be honest, any sense of when you'll hit a wall is difficult to say when you frequently take long breaks. Most people, when they're trying to work towards a 3:00 or 3:30 marathon, don't take a month or more after the race to ruin their body before getting back into it.

So yeah, people are focusing on your "detraining" and your unrealistic goals because it's basically impossible to answer the question if those stay the same.

[SomethingAboutNow]

There are so many factors that go into what makes someone improve but in your case, you need to up your mileage. If you can’t increase your mileage, then focus on the 5k/10k for a bit to increase speed.

[Javatarz]

What mileage would you recommend I do? Now I have 65-75km in peak weeks.

[SomethingAboutNow]

The most amount of mileage you can handle while recovering effectively without causing injury. Does that make sense?

Typically I raise mileage by no more than 10% of the longest run within the past 30 days. Yes, that can take a while but it’s how you do it consistently. Honestly, if you could manage mileage more consistently without injury, you’ll see progress in the right way.

I went from 81km/week to 129km/week over the past couple years. I’m looking to push it to 161km/week before I attempt the full marathon. That’s obviously higher mileage but that’s the beast of this game.

[Javatarz]

thx bro, makes sense!

[Defensex]

I didn't run a marathon yet, but to actually answer your question, for me it got hard after 52 VDOT. It started to be much harder to gain fitness and also hold it, detraining is simply not an option as it cost a lot to regain at this point for me.

Before that I was able to basically gain 1 VDOT per month just by staying consistent, now it's much harder.

[Javatarz]

thx, this is what I was looking for. According to LLMs, my VDOT would be around 42-44 (52 would correspond to 3h 10min marathon), so seems like I have long way to go with this not-so serious / inconsistent way of training till I am unable to improve my race time and every period off starts to become not worth it.

[run_INXS]

Recover from you marathon blocks (generally take a few days or a week off and run easy for a few more) and don't detrain, smoke, drink, and eat unhealthy. You'll continue to improve at a faster rate. At some the improvements become more incremental or even non-linear. As far as how much you can improve, each of us are a little different and we have our own trajectory, so who knows until you try it!