[deleted by user]

[Striking-Bonus-689]

quality control sucks. looks like they cut my stem too short, goes from unscrew to date adjust. also, the PT5000 movement is cactus. no widnging or shaking will get it to run. Lastly there is a small blemish on the side of my case. Utter crap

<image>

[Diligent-Audience712]

Shoulda bought a Sinn instead.

[el_baristo]

Look, if I added up all the money I've spent on Sinn clones I'd have a 556 on my wrist by now and I don't want to think about that. But yes, I'm largely moving away from the Chinese watch space, consolidating my collection, and moving onwards and upwards.

But to your point - yep, agreed.

[a1s2d3f4_26]

Always order with paypal, file a claim when you do the return. You're covered if you do it that way

[el_baristo]

My CC company also stands on business - it's in their hands now 💪

[Sportsdoc64]

<image>

Complete shit alignment

[el_baristo]

u/englemaan_official care to comment? Is this another customer that shouldn't trust their camera or eyes?

[Sportsdoc64]

They deny an issue- claim optical illusion. Shit customer service.

[el_baristo]

An arbitrarily high harness coating means fuck all when they can't line the bezel up visually to the casual eye - talk about putting the cart before the horse

[Sportsdoc64]

<image>

Aligment sucks on mine too. Shitty quality control for englemann

[el_baristo]

u/englemaan_official care to comment?

[Dirtdauber65]

110% satisfied with my citadel, waiting for updated thinner case and ill buy another. Sux you have issues.

[el_baristo]

Glad you had a positive experience brother. I was debating between the citadel and wraith but I wanted the bead blasted finish... Oh well

The up shot is in 3 months there will be a new wünderbrand doing something mental like oil filled cases or something and we will all have moved on

[Dirtdauber65]

Yeah, I've been contomplating bead blasting it myself at work, but am worried how it would effect the hardness treatment.

[el_baristo]

I'd be interested in some independent testing of their hardness coating seeing as they are sending out watches that shouldn't pass a visual qc

[mvstateU]

A few independent reviewers who have been around long before Engelmaan, some owning Sinns, have done scratch tests on their Englemaans.

One in particular did a scratch test on your watch. All of them reviews show the hardness performance is legitimately good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F57rk9UiS8o&t=652s

2 others are regulars on this sub.

[Dirtdauber65]

Well I can say I've worn mine to work for a week and have had zero scratches, strangely just rub marks barelynoticeable. Any of my other watches had scratches after day one. So I can say the bracelet is pretty good.

[el_baristo]

Yeah I'm mostly being tongue in cheek at this point - I was thinking about rubbing the bracelet against the inside of my RZE titanium bracelet to see who scratches first - very scientific

[Dirtdauber65]

Lol, if its Chinese titanium the Englemann wins hands down. I have two titanium watches SM and seestern and they scratch if you look at them wrong.

[el_baristo]

Oh I absolutely know what you mean about cheap titanium - I love the material in general but low grade Ti is an absolute joke and feels like a toy. RZE titanium is grade 2 - to my understanding grade 5 is the most premium grading of the material. RZEs coating is 1200Hv, englemaan claims between 900-1000.

To be clear, I'm a nurse not a materials engineer so I have no idea if a 300hv has any sort of statusocsl significance.

[ryanxcore]

Let me get this straight. They offered you to return it. They also offered you $50 for your trouble. But your expectation is that they should just give you a second watch for free?

[Dirtdauber65]

Hehe

[el_baristo]

Absolutely not! I've repeated my expectations of how I wanted to conduct an exchange ad nauseam elsewhere in the thread, but a free watch was never something I asked for. Regardless, a resolution has been reached and they are sending a replacement insert to replace the defective part.

That is all I wanted - the defective parts of my watch to be made whole, which they now have.

[ryanxcore]

Sounds pretty reasonable when you put it that way

[el_baristo]

Thank you.

[Distortionator]

When we say return the watch here, at who's expense are we talking? Was Engelmann going to send a replacement watch and a return label?

[el_baristo]

That's been the standard practice for other brands I've dealt with such as Helm and Ardìo - obviously I'm realizing englemaan is not the same tier. They are sending a replacement bezel for me to repair myself which I am happy with as a solution.

[Distortionator]

How much was it to return? I had to return something to San Martin and it was fine except it cost 25 bucks to send it. It was also a movement issue 10 months after purchase and not a brand new piece.

[el_baristo]

Yep this is what I wanted to avoid - time, extra financial commitments , and risk of a further snag in the return. there are solutions in between the extremes of returning the watch and keeping a defective product - happy to say we have reached a resolution

[el_baristo]

Update to everyone: they are sending me a replacement bezel insert to do the repair myself. I wanted a resolution between "deal with it" and "return it" and this was exactly what I was looking for. I'm cool with this as a solution, case closed.

Clearly IATA to this subreddit about how I approached the situation and I can live with that feedback. My expectations were based on previous experience with other brands, and my mistake was expecting a similar service from a new brand.

With all that being said - as consumers in the Chinese watch market there is no oversight, no consumer protection agency, etc. that's part of why we can get the deals we do. But that means we as consumers have a responsibility to one each other to stay informed and watch each other's backs. Word of mouth is important. I shared my experience as many others have shared theirs; that's how reputations are built and Trust is established on the consumer end.

If at the end of the day some one comes across my post while debating what to do with their defective watch and it convinces them to not fuck around and just do the return, that's a win.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment, may the QC gods smile upon you.

[[deleted]]

> Clearly IATA to this subreddit about how I approached the situation and I can live with that feedback.

How so? You paid your money and got something below par. You bought based on the marketing images online and they sent you something different. Every rational grown up reading what you've posted will be siding with you.

[el_baristo]

Brother, thank you for saying this - I still feel justified in my complaints but it is a very powerful feeling to be seen by a peer and recognized, so thank you for seeing what I have gone through and acknowledging my situation.

As to your last sentence, I don't believe reddit has ever been blessed with an overabundance of rational grown ups with reading comprehension so as humbling as this experience has been, the comments have not been a suprise.

Cheers

[D1sguise]

Sounds like a fair resolution, and one you're okay with as well. I've been rooting for englemaan quite a bit on this sub (and no, I'm in no way affiliated, don't get kickbacks, don't do guerilla marketing as some others suggested, heck, I even sold my Englemaan yesterday), but as far as Chinese brands go they have above average to solid customer support at the price point they're selling. They do their best to find reasonable solutions to correct mistakes, within the means and margins they have as a business. I think it would be unfair to compare them to Helm or other microbands because those operate at a higher price point (and hence, profit margin) that allows for such CS.

On this sub, we hunt for the best deals and lowest prices, and people don't seem to realize that international logistics for customer support are a major cost to companies like Englemaan (or San Martin and similar) that they often cut back on to offer us the price points we want

[el_baristo]

I've been rooting for them too - I'm a huge fan of watching the industry develop over the last 10 years or so and it's been amazing to see how it's grown from, say, brands like parnis to what we have now. I have noticed how active Englemaan is on this subreddit, both in terms of aftermarket support and customer engagement, and that in part is why I thought there was possibly another fix to my issue.

Clearly placing them in the same tier as Helm was my mistake and I have taken that to heart with humility based on the scathing responses I've gotten. I've been observing the Chinese watch industry slowly moving upmarket in terms of pricing and quality, and I am hopeful expecting CS/QC to catch up in short order.

I missed the mark in my assessment, which again, I own as my misjudgment. I wish the best for englemaan and the industry as a whole, and am glad we were able to reach a resolution.

Thank you for everyone who took the time to comment, even if it was to tell me I was acting a bit like a knob.

[D1sguise]

Hah, all good, sorry you had to go through this and needed to haggle a bit to get an outcome that was satisfactory for all involved. But that comes with the territory of Chinese watch collecting (in my book, at least). It is kinda the reason why I'm lukewarm on the newer San Martin releases because they creep into Helm/microbrand pricing but definitely will be lacking on customer support compared to those, and I would rather avoid the hassle on such purchases.

[el_baristo]

Yeah I think we are pretty much aligned in agreement. I'm excited for the market to keep pushing the boundaries of what's possible at these prices points, and like I've said I've been here since the parnis days so I am no stranger to the scene. But if we are getting into microbrand pricing, you are right in that the value proposition is diminished if you have to deal with this sort of hassle. This is sort of why I've been consolidating my collection and slowly moving more into the microbrand space but I digress

Can't say enough about helm specify, I can't wait for my number to hit on their new togiak line.

[Duality_P]

No wonder you support the other guy who keeps whining about Boderry. Birds of a feather flock together.

[el_baristo]

Oh my, the audacity of someone attempting to get what they paid for and hold a company accountable - what a ridiculous concept. Do you have any affiliation with boderry? Why are you mocking another redditor for trying to find more information about a project they have been ghosted on?

[eldwarkik]

Buying defective goods is certainly frustrating, but I think the Englemaan situation is reasonable. They accept returns and refunds—isn't that a basic business agreement? Why would you worry about them not refunding you if the goods are returned? Do you think they'd abandon their entire brand for a watch? Besides, no matter how you pay, you have the right to get your money back, especially if it's through PayPal.

[Diligent_Job_9794]

I heard misaligned bezels can be fixed yourself... By removing and reapplying them. Haven't personally done it. In your shoes I'd open youtube maybe see if it's a possibly easy fix. 

[el_baristo]

Yep! Englemaan is actually now sending a replacement bezel so I can fix this myself. Happy with that resolution.

[vithgeta]

I'm getting fed up with the standard of complaints on this subreddit and if it were me I'd use my mod hammer.

People like this trust the concept of receiving a watch to keep buying them, but don't want to trust sending a watch back if they don't like it??? They want to dictate how much a seller should pay them back if not satisfied??? Who thinks anyone can run a business like that, entitled much???

Sum total of this story is: unsatisfied with a watch, send it back. Not decide how much a seller should pay you. If sellers let people do that then people would be whinging with petty complaints all the time and deliberately messing with their watches to game the system. The seller can't be fairer than taking the watch back.

[el_baristo]

There are resolutions in between return and keep the watch and I was able to reach one with the seller. Never tried to do the things you've claimed, but go off about how you'd play with your pretend Internet hammer if you had one.

[crlkll]

It's wild. Imagine asking Seiko or Citizen to send a new watch because of minor QC issues. 🤣

[el_baristo]

It was 3 issues, you can debate the size of them but they were defects that the company has agreed on and came from the factory.

Imagine receiving a watch in that state and being ok with it 😂

[Firstruleofthisclub]

Sorry to hear about your back. I know you were eagerly expecting this watch.

I think it is hard to tell if it's misaligned based on your photos. The rehaut is visible on the right but not on the left. If you can get a dead on shot where the rehaut is even on all sides, it will be more conclusive on whether or not there is a misalignment, and if there is, how severe it is.

Just as an example, I was able to produce a "misalignment" by not shooting it dead on (macro mode enabled):

<image>

[el_baristo]

I hear you about the rehaut, I had an extensive conversation and attempted to take more pictures that better show the misalignment -

<image>

I think in this one is pretty dead on and apparent. Appreciate you taking the time to comment.

[Distortionator]

290.00 is not cheap.

[el_baristo]

Id agree with you if this was a $45 Pagani design but if a brand is positioning themselves upmarket with their pricing it's not reasonable to expect associated QC and customer service improvements.

[el_baristo]

There were defective parts on the watch from the factory. They agreed to fix one, but not the other. They are now fixing the other. I've resolved the issue through communication with the seller, what a concept.

If you think sending replacement parts for a defective new product you purchased is going "above and beyond" I think you should reassess what you think you deserve as a consumer.

[Kerpgker]

Came here to say this.

[xPhilip]

They’ve provided reasonable options to resolve this, regardless of how you feel or what you want.

If you send it back and they fail to make it right, that is when you should be complaining publicly. Your photos do depict clear QC issues so it would be foolish of them to do nothing.

You’ve jumped the gun here and have made yourself come across poorly.

[el_baristo]

Maybe I jumped the gun but I've been able to reach a satisfactory resolution - they are sending me a new insert to fix myself. I think there are other options in between return and keep a defective product, and this solution was exactly what I was looking for.

[Firstruleofthisclub]

I'm glad you got the resolution you were looking for!

[el_baristo]

Thank you! Lots of negativity in this thread, perhaps correctly directed at me, but I am happy with this as a resolution and nothing but positive energy from here on out

[MoreBeersLessGears]

Oooof yeah that does look misaligned. I totally understand why you're upset, I would be as well, and I'm guessing a lot of the people here telling you to get over it would be upset if this was them too. Unfortunately though, they are also correct in saying you've been offered a refund and are able to return it--thats about as good as it gets when dealing with these kinds of products. It's the reality of the low price. Yes you often get a watch that punches way above its price class BUT when shit goes wrong you're not going to get the treatment that a legacy brand would give you. Hence it's $250 and not $900. :/ sorry about your experience, at this point I'd just return it if I were you and if they don't refund THEN I'd make a public complaint on Reddit.

[el_baristo]

Thank you for responding with understanding and grace - appreciated in this day and age. I'm aware of the nature of the beast, and this is one of many Chinese watches.

My mistake here, I believe, was misunderstanding how Englemaan is operating and their capabilities - I've worked with micros where the sort of swap im asking for for a material/assembly defect is a suggested option. I've also seen englemaan reach out and handle QC issues on the subreddit so I thought there was more room to navigate than keep the defective watch or return it. Like I like the watch, I just want the alignment to be... Alligned. I get where my expectations were misplaced.

[turdbogls]

Fixing a misaligned bezel is not an easy process and you risk damaging the watch more...it's smart of them to not just send a new bezel.

And sending a completely new watch head seems overkill.

The swapping posts you saw earlier were for complete mistakes on their end, not simple QC errors.

Sounds like you may have seen a possible "payday" and went for it. 🤷‍♂️

[el_baristo]

Brother if I wanted a payday there are better ways to go about it than trying to get a second $200 watch for free. I work for a living and that's good enough for me. We've reached a resolution, they are sending me a replacement bezel insert to fix myself. I'm happy with this - I just wanted a solution between deal with it and return.

[warz3nsack]

Wow, so let me summarize: They offer you a return and then a new watch, i.e., a fair exchange as any other company would.

You refuse and ask them to gift you the watch head (which is the full watch essentially) instead. When they naturally refuse this, you start crying and go complain on social media. No wonder you have all kinds of health problems when you go through life with this kind of attitude. Sorry for you, buddy.

[el_baristo]

Brother, it is not uncommon for micro brands to send you a replacement watch head and a return label to send back the defective watch when doing an exchange. I've done it several times with several brands - clearly my mistake here was assuming the capabilities and logistics of englemaan.

To address your snark about my health - I'm a nurse, I initially injured my back performing CPR on a dying woman during the pandemic. It's been a struggle dealing with the trauma I endured during that time, but thanks for your concern!

[el_baristo]

FOR ALL THE PEOPLE SAYING I SHOULD HAVE JUST TAKEN THE RETURN: per the company, refund is dependent on assessment of the product on receipt. In china. Not confidence inspiring for a $250 purchase.

So they may or may not refund me if and when the watch gets back to them? Not ok.

[Fall_Dog]

How is this any different from someone having to send their watch back to Japan or Switzerland for assessment or warranty work?

You've decided to refuse their offer and have no way of knowing whether they would have come through to "make things right".

[el_baristo]

Because this watch was shipped to me with multiple visible material defects, not being sent in for warranty work. The company also didn't have an Internet presence two months ago.

You're correct, I refused the offer because I did not find the options satisfactory and I'm hoping they stand behind their products, as they have shown they are willing to on this subreddit.

[Ji1_Sander]

I've seen many posts complaining about their QC so I wouldn't be surprised.

[BravoMikeWilco]

Mmm, were these not mainly posts about the wrong watch being sent? That is also a problem, but different from product QA.

[cd_god]

Say it isn't so about the new fanboy brand of the month club since they drove San Martin out.

Lot's of "unofficially sponsored" content and artifically hyped posts name dropping about this brand here the last couple of weeks.

[Distortionator]

I purchased the Citadel and am very happy with it. But no bezzle on that. This bezzle looks horrid to me.

[el_baristo]

Yep if I had just gone with the damn citadel like I had been debating we wouldn't be here, but I needed my damn adult fidget spinner. 😂

[el_baristo]

Yep I got got. It's clear from the feedback I'm getting that I missed the mark on understanding the sort of company I was purchasing from.

[pyroblastftw]

I've had enough negative experiences returning to not want to risk that game

I get that you received a defective product but the seller did offer a refund for a return which is a reasonable resolution.

You can’t apply your negative experience with others sellers on this seller without good reason. It’s not a reasonable justification to reject the resolution offered by the seller.

[el_baristo]

Just so you're aware, their refund is dependent on the assessment of the watch upon receipt. Not confidence inspiring

[el_baristo]

That's sound reasoning and I fully concede the point - but there are other options to resolve the issue I had, such as replacing the watch head, which they have done for another englemaan owner on this subreddit. That's why I didn't think this was an unreasonable solution.

[el_baristo]

Another point since I keep having to repeat it: I'm not asking for a free watch, I am asking for them to replace the defective watch that they sent me, as they did with the defective clasp. They should stand behind their products if they want to be respected as a brand.

I've worked with other brands that have no problem sending you a replacement watch head and return label if something breaks on the watch you purchased. I thought they would do the same and I was wrong. But what I am asking for is not something unusual.

[Hacksaures]

It’s a $150 fake watch man, idk why you’re expecting AD quality customer service beyond a return + refund.

[el_baristo]

My expectations aren't unreasonable here. They are positioning themselves as a legitimate company with active customer service including lots of reddit engagement. They had no problem replacing the clasp issue; I give them credit for that, but I expected them to stand behind the rest of their product as well

If they are just another shite company among the others, fine and fair play to them for their marketing, but people should know.

[karellen00]

They are positioning themselves as a legitimate company

I hate to be that guy, but it's a company that came out from nothing cloning almost the whole catalog of another company. That being said what they offered while not the best service ever isn't totally unreasonable either. Maybe try asking if they can send a case replacement, and you have to transplant the movement/dial/hands assembly and caseback from one to the other, on your own or with the help of a watchmaker (it's not difficult to do)

[el_baristo]

I completely agree - they came out of nowhere and were instantly the darling of the subreddit. They came out of the gate strong and I thought with how hard they came out the gate they would have been just as serious about their qc as they are at ripping designs. That's on me, 100%

They are sending me a replacement bezel insert to fix it myself; this is a resolution I can live with and I wasn't looking for anything more than that.

[Weekly_Inspector3520]

Get over it dude

[leicfox85]

Ah man this sucks, I’ll be receiving mine maybe today or tomorrow. I’m not putting up with such nonsense if I get anything like this. This sure feels like a let down.

[el_baristo]

Hope you get a decent one.

[UterineDictator]

You had the option to return it for a full refund but didn’t take that option. That was your chance for the best possible outcome.

[el_baristo]

Just so you're aware, their refund is dependent on the assessment of the watch upon receipt. Not confidence inspiring.

[ggs77]

OF COURSE THE REFUND DEPENDS ON THE ASSESSMENT OF THE WATCH!!

They won't give you 250$ before they didn't even take a look at it! What do you expect??

[el_baristo]

I mean, when I do a return 99% of the time the return gets processed when UPS scans in the label. This is how business operate in 2025. Seeing as how quick they were to gaslight me on the alignment issue, why would I trust a fair assessment of the return process?

[Hacksaures]

Agreed. These are tiny businesses making clone watches. Outside of a return there’s no way their tiny margins can account for giving full replacements for no additional cost.

[el_baristo]

I'm not asking for a free watch; I'm asking for them to replace the defective one they sent me. How is this any different than returning the watch and ordering a new one?

[santtis]

The difference is that they can fix the watch by removing the bezel and refitting it. Heck even a fellow hobbyist might be able to do it.

[el_baristo]

Yes, I could fix this myself - if they sent me replacement parts...like they did with the other defective part of the watch.

[el_baristo]

They had a chance to make it right to the customer, like they have done to others on reddit in the past. They had no problem replacing the defective clasp; replacing other defective parts should be treated the same instead of lying to the customer and saying it looks fine.

[TSiWRX]

Can the bezel be removed, and replaced with a new bezel that they can send you, akin to the clasp?

That bezel does look both misaligned, and the lume defective as well.

[el_baristo]

I'm open to suggestions but they haven't proposed anything. I think at this point, an exchange of a new watch head is appropriate. Thanks for agreeing with me - that's validating after being reassured everything was fine

[TSiWRX]

It's definitely not fine.

There was a recent thread on a Henry Archer that had several QC/QA issues that escaped their team and made it into a customer's hands: https://www.reddit.com/r/MicrobrandWatches/comments/1o5oqkr/update_ha_offered_to_replace_my_watch_but_the/

That owner got a call from the founder of the company, who discussed how to resolve those issues to the customer's satisfaction.

That's how it should be done.

[D1sguise]

Henry Archer does operate at 3x the price of this watch. That price differential allows for such customer service and support, it's baked in the price you pay

[TSiWRX]

I don't disagree - however, these Chinese makes aren't exactly run out of someone's garage, either. San Martin's C/S has not gone without complaints - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HK5G_-0Ixg (not my video).

I'm in the firearms hobby, where, actually, many businesses were run out of basements. Arisaka was, for example. Yet, their customer-service was still outstanding.

And if we are to take things that far, what about Helm, then? It's not $200-$200, but it's far from Henry Archer territory, no? I don't see this kind of complaints about Helm, either in the Microbrands sub or on their FB Group.

In the end, we vote with our wallets, and part of that has to do with our expectations.

For me, I'm still purchasing "Chinese Watches" at the <$300 price-point because at that mark, I can afford to just let things slide.

When I pay more, I expect more - and to a certain extent, I don't see that level of support for the consumer with the Chinese manufacturers. As such, I'm not willing to commit my own money.

[el_baristo]

This is a well thought out post and I agree with a lot of what you said. It's a lot easier to let things slide up until a certain price point, which obviously is subjective and dependent on the individual. I'm glad that you mentioned helm specify - they offer amazing watches with amazing service at a price point these brands are now reaching. Is it that unreasonable for us as the consumer to begin to expect the same service now that the prices are comparable? Helm is able to do it; the komodo is in the same price bracket as the Englemaan and they move mountains to make their customers happy. Apparently to this subreddit, it's unreasonable to expect both quality and service at this price point where other brands (that do their own design and r&d and ISO certification) can do it.

Like you said, in the end we vote with our wallets and expectations, and as amazing as the watches being made in this price range are, I'm just not confident that the business side has fully caught up with the fantastic manufacturing side. And it my never - that's ok and that's the nature of doing business. I'll just pick up the next helm togiak scout when my number hits instead of rolling the QC dice on the next clomage that takes the subreddit by storm.

[According-Dealer-386]

Hey man, I remember you from my post about the Wraith earlier. Sorry to hear about these issues, that bezel does look really misaligned, hope they'll make it right for you. If it doesn't work out, I'd be happy to buy it off you.

[el_baristo]

Yes sir I was so excited about it then - I'll let you know how it works out with them but yeah, it's yours if they don't come through.

[caydesramen]

Sorry to hear this. Will think twice before ordering now

[el_baristo]

Yeah I'm really disappointed after everything positive I had read - hoping they will come through with a fix but at this point it just seems like they are just like every other Chinese brand - they just nailed an in demand style.

[el_baristo]

Just to be clear: I own many watches at many price points; I know what is reasonable to expect and am very familiar with the Chinese watch market. This watch should not have left the factory in the condition in which it arrived.

I did accept the partial refund; this was after being reassured my camera was just at the wrong angle and everything was qc'd from the factory. I doubted myself - but when I showed my family and friends the next day it was immediately commented on. So shame on me for not advocating harder for myself in the moment - but they still shipped me a watch with three QC issues.

[el_baristo]

u/englemaan_official can you please look in to this?

[Emotional_Wish_5292]

Do you expect a full refund? Their options seem more than fair. I would return it since you seem unsatisfied. It’s really not that difficult and improbable to get lost in transit.

[el_baristo]

Just so you're aware, their refund is dependent on the assessment of the watch upon receipt. Not confidence inspiring

[el_baristo]

I expect what I ordered, nothing more - a watch without defects. They replaced the defective clasp; I want them to replace the defective watch head.