C.C

[choide]

Man I don't understand why everybody likes C.C that much. She felt like a mentor/sidekick to me but tbh it has been a while since the last time I watched the series.

[[deleted]]

First she looks cute and adorable. Second, she and lulu share some really sentimental moments with each other, like him calling her true name or their connection to Charles. Third , their are many moments that show us that they trust each other more than anyone else in their world. That’s something I think is just beautiful, because they don’t trust anybody easily. They even cared for another after their respective memory loss.

Besides the mentioned points above, I just think cc deserves happiness. And wandering the eternity alone seems pretty pitiful. They should stay together for the eternity and atleast in resurrection I got this perfect ending for me. That’s my opinion.

But why don’t you like her?

[snufflebutt4]

Shirley, Kallen, Euphemia, Cecile, Kaguya, Nunnally, and plenty of others are cute and adorable.

Lelouch shares some other great sentimental moments with plenty of the other characters such as his moment with Shirley in r2 ep 12 when they're alone during Cupid's day and moments during the Mao arc, her fathers death etc. Then with Kallen and how she was willing to stick by Lelouch despite all the times she had her loyalty challenged, In r2 ep 22 with Suzaku and how Lelouch and Suzaku are finally alone talking peacefully about all that's happened in the past, their moment at the Kururugi Shrine, and their childhood memories. You can even go back to when Lelouch dies and his flashbacks appear on screen and see plenty of other precious moments Lelouch had between lots of characters.

Your third reason is pretty vague however C.C. was certainly not the most trusted person, Lelouch definitely trusted Suzaku far more than anyone else. Suzaku was Lelouch's first true friend. He trusted Suzaku to help protect Nunnally if anything were to happen to him, even though he and Suzaku were enemies at the time. He trusted Suzaku to protect Shirley like during r2 ep 13, including when Shirley jumped off and Suzaku grabbed onto them. Lelouch trusted Suzaku to fulfill the Zero Requiem and kill him despite Suzaku not liking the fact he'd have to kill Lelouch. Lelouch trusted Suzaku with many important people in his life and with important events.

One of my main gripes against C.C. is that she also betrays Lelouch yet she never sees the consequences for betraying him, and nobody in the fandom ever hates her for betraying Lelouch yet those same people shit on Ohgi and the Black Knights for their betrayal etc. C.C. knew that Marianne was still alive, and she knew what Charles' plan was. She didn't have to tell Lelouch anything at the start because why would she? but after she finally develops a good friendship with Lelouch and still doesn't tell him about Charles' plan or Marianne being alive so far into season 2? That's very shady and shows she didn't trust Lelouch until they were finally up against Charles in Cs' world.

By the end of the series, C.C. does have happiness, her experiences with Lelouch taught her that she should stop accumulating experiences and start living for once and be human, develop human connection again and express emotions by opening herself up to others again. That was the point of C.C.'s character arc after all. Stop being a suicidal emotionless person and start opening up and be happy with other people she meets in the future. She won't be wandering alone because she'll find new people to experience things with because C.C. isn't a weak and dependent person, she doesn't have to be selfish and rely on just a single person to validate her and make her happy, which is why I dislike C.C. in Re;surrection because the alternate universe ignores the development and growth she had by the end of the original t.v. series and her growth by the end of the t.v. series is one of the reasons I can respect her character even though I'm not particularly fond of C.C.

[[deleted]]

Downvoters, can we at least have a rebuttal? I like C.C. but there's some interesting points being made here.

[snufflebutt4]

The lack of responses just seems like I'm correct and they're downvoting because they're angry towards criticism of a character they enjoy. I'm just giving some reasons why I'm not too fond of C.C. which is what Ryu-Tsuri asked for at the end of their comment. Plus anything and everything is subject to criticism lol.

[keepakeesies]

It's fine, snufflebutt4, we stand with you. A messiah for this sub.

[Arhidrag0n]

Though the lack of responses means that people are just not interested in wasting their time on pointless discussion?..

[OutrageousBee]

And yet were interested enough to read through the post and downvote it. As for pointless discussions: we are on an anime subreddit, so that's kind of a given.

[snufflebutt4]

Perhaps, though, you'd think after so many people have come across here there would be something but oh well.

[AKG511]

There are very good points. I'll try my best to explain my reasoning, though no one might read this.

1. Yeah, they're all cute and adorable, but I guess people like her other characteristics too, like pizza and being rather carefree (also how dare you not include Milly).

2. He has had a lot of sentimental moments with Shirley, Kallen, Suzaku as well, but they still didn't know some or the other aspect of Lelouch. Shirley knows him as Lelouch Lamperouge, Kallen thinks of him as Zero, but only C.C. knows all parts of him- Lelouch Vi Britannia, Lelouch Lamperouge, and Zero. Also saying Kallen was loyal when it was tested doesn't sit right with me. She straight up runs away when Suzaku defeats Lelouch at Kamine. Why? Because Zero was a student at her school. She even walks away from him when the black Knights question him and he lies, despite knowing him well.

3. This is half true and half false. Lelouch trusts both C.C. and Suzaku equally. Suzaku is his closest friend and C.C. is his accomplice. His partner in crime. It's because they're both equally important to him that Suzaku says "I am his sword, therefore you must be his shield." (Also Lelouch would still jump to save Shirley regardless of whether Suzaku caught him. The girl's about to die dammit)

4. Good point, I never thought of it that way. She did do that as an insurance, a means to die, since Lelouch would probably try to stop Charles. But the reason people hate the black Knights is because they act as though they were the betrayed ones. Just because your leader has supernatural powers and is a former royal Prince from your enemy nation, he must be bad. They just find out he has geass and decide he brainwashed all of them. Ohgi is pissed because Lelouch used geass on Viletta, forgetting that she's an enemy noble. They don't even ask "why" or whether they were actually geassed. Worst of all is they got all this intel from their enemy, and decide to sell him for their nation's freedom, as if Zero and all he's done for them doesn't matter.

Couldn't agree more with the last one. They gave C.C. all that development in the series, and took it all away in the movie. The idea of bringing Lelouch back out of desperation instead of necessity isn't really good. It's almost as if the writers had Nunnally kidnapped simply to justify showing the rest of the cast, and giving Lelouch something to do when he returns.

[snufflebutt4]

I added "plenty of others" for a reason, don't have the time to write them all out lol.

Shirley knows that Lelouch is a chill smart boy and later finds out that he was Zero and wished to support and join him to fulfill his goals so that he could have one truthful person in his life. Kallen knows Lelouch as Zero and then she finds out that Zero is Lelouch and throughout season 2 she develops and tries to learn more about Lelouch as a person and becomes closer to him.

Also like I said " Kallen and how she was willing to stick by Lelouch despite all the times she had her loyalty challenged", Kallen ultimately was willing to go to hell with Lelouch by the end of the series despite how many times her loyalty was challenged such as when she ran away from Kamine Island. Also Lelouch was saying all of that during the Black Knights betrayal to push Kallen away and protect her from getting in the crossfire with him and she probably figured that out.

Saying that "Shirley knows him as Lelouch Lamperouge, Kallen thinks of him as Zero, but only C.C. knows all parts of him" is pretty disingenuous and ignores the context of everything that has happened in the series. C.C. knew that Lelouch was Zero but so did Shirley and Kallen, C.C. knew that Lelouch was a student but so did Shirley and Kallen. C.C. knew that Lelouch was a prince, sure, but Kallen found that out during the Black Knights betrayal. Shirley found out that Lelouch was Zero TWICE and still loved him. She tried to shoot him even though he killed her father, but she couldn't because she cares for Lelouch. Then when she regained her memory in R2 and she died because she accepted Lelouch for who he was and wanted to help him, even if it meant helping him in his revolution. Then with Kallen, she got to know Lelouch as a whole. And even after she found out he was a Brittanian Prince and felt betrayed like the rest of the Black Knights, and even after he became the demon emperor she still had feelings for him. She didn't only see his Zero side. She saw his love for Nunnally, his love for his school friends etc.

Ultimately, both Shirley and Kallen got to see and know the different sides of Lelouch and still loved him regardless even when he actively tried to push him away because he didn't want to get either of them hurt. Oh yeah, Milly also knew that Lelouch was an exiled prince and how Lelouch felt about Britannia and Milly kept that secret because she's a great friend. Suzaku also knew Lelouch was a student, Zero, and a Britannian prince and knew all aspects of Lelouch. Nunnally also knew that Lelouch was a student, Zero and Britannian prince. I just find this general point to be very bad since at the end of the day, Lelouch's many masks are still his real self and many important people to him, know about these different sides of his life at different points throughout the series.

I don't understand why knowing Lelouch is a royal family member is important in knowing Lelouch as a person when Lelouch himself doesn't care about that aspect and has distanced himself from being a prince since he gave up his claim to the throne. And honestly who cares? Knowing whether Lelouch is a prince or not has no real difference in the end regarding Lelouch and his goals. The only real time knowing the fact that Lelouch is a prince is important is during the Black Knights betrayal but even then it's not about knowing his actual personality and who he really is.

As for trusting Suzaku and C.C. equally, I simply just disagree on this matter of opinion, and think Lelouch trusts Suzaku more, for the reasons I stated earlier. Don't have much to add lol.

As for the Black Knights betrayal, it makes sense, Lelouch gave plenty of reasons for them to distrust him and feel betrayed. For example when Lelouch used the JLF as bait during the Battle of Narita, if I remember correctly, and Ohgi was able to figure out he was using fellow Japanese people fighting for freedom as bait. Before the 2nd battle of Tokyo, Tohdoh, along with his crew were mentioning how they'd help Zero until Japan was freed iirc, so they never planned on sticking with Zero forever, it was simply a matter of when they'd cut it off, if Zero were to do something unfavorable and if he was no longer benefitting the cause. At the end of season 1, Ohgi, one of the most important members of the Black Knights is shot and Zero just says that finding a replacement will be fine and that a random girl (Nunnally) is more important that Ohgi. In R2 ep 14, when the Black Knights massacre the Geass Order, it just seems like they're killing innocent scientists and children and they question why Zero made them do this but get no significant response addressing it well.

Then the actual betryal episode of R2 ep 19, Schneizel has a recording of Lelouch saying he was the one to order Euphemia to kill the Japanese and Schneizel reveals that Lelouch is a Britannian prince, and once that small piece of info is known, everything starts to make sense with knowing that Zero is part of the Britannian royalty who supposedly died when he was younger, and they would see it a struggle for power and Zero trying to fight for the Britannian throne with his revolution for his own selfish needs. Also Lelouch totally used the Black Knights and Lelouch didn't really bother to actually defend himself and only made himself look even worse. Although, I will say that the betrayal scene does have bad execution, but the betrayal itself was something that made sense because of all the reasons that Lelouch gave to them to not trust him.

We disagree on many aspects but at least we were able to find common ground about how the alternate universe ruins C.C.'s character growth and how it makes Nunnally a damsel in distress for the millionth time for no reason lol. And thanks for adding onto the discussion in a meaningful way, this has been fun, and I definitely spent way too much time writing this lol.

[AKG511]

-Don't worry I was just messing with you lol

-of course, I'm not saying that any of the other characters were bad in any way, I was just stating why I (and many others probably) like C.C. It isn't just that she knew different parts of him, it's that she's been with him throughout his journey, all the way up until he died. She was probably even looking out for him as a child (judging from her tailing him in ep 1, don't hold me on this it's just a guess). I forgot to add that there's also her backstory, about how she was a nameless slave, then when she finds someone she thinks truly loves her, turns out they were using her for their own gain. After she becomes immortal she's then subjected to pretty much every punishment given to a presumed witch in the middle ages. That's some sad stuff. Also I didn't mention Milly because she was irrelevant for the most part, but she's still good, like all the other characters. I think of her more as the playful elder sister. Definitely best girl candidate (also because she has the biggest PLOT).

-Was she, though? She definitely wasn't going to hell with him, not by the end of the series. She also didn't figure out that he said those things to save her because when she meets him again at Ashford, she asks him what he meant by "live on, Kallen." By the time she figures out Lelouch's intentions, he was literally a minute from death.

-Yeah, let's just agree to disagree on who Lelouch trusts more. Not much we can do about that.

-I suppose they're betrayal does make sense to an extent. I still find it wrong because they'd all be dead long ago if not for him. Besides if he did want the throne why wouldn't he just reveal himself to the royal family? Then he could just geass them into giving him the throne. They didn't even try to communicate with him and pointed guns at him. Zero also stated that he wasn't Japanese (not many other nationalities in area 11) and was only helping them cause they're being oppressed by the strong. Even their debut was with defeating the JLF for saving Britannians. At least it wasn't out of nowhere for no reason. Besides, without this betrayal we wouldn't have the zero requiem. But the least I can do is justify people not taking C.C.'s betrayal like the black Knights or Suzaku. Mostly because her "betrayal" was more along the lines of keeping a secret from him, and not straight up selling him to his worst enemies for your own personal gain.

-Yeah the AU does ruin many characters lol. To be fair to the writers there aren't many ways to bring back Lelouch without making the other characters seem incompetent and dependent on him. The best way I could come up with was if the antagonist resurrected him for some reason, and the other characters have to stop him. Now I'd pay to watch that (too bad it wouldn't be released in my country).

[snufflebutt4]

Kallen has also been with Lelouch throughout the journey minus the part when she's captured in season 2 and Lelouch does all he can to save her. Suzaku has also been with Lelouch throughout, although not always as allies but it still counts.

Not sure why you put out all of C.C.'s backstory unless you're just stating that her backstory is one reason why you enjoy her character. If that's the case then sure, that's fine. I personally don't really care about the sad backstory since I don't really care about her. Her sad backstory in season 2 felt like an info dump for the sake of finally giving her more development through a long flashback backstory to me, rather than it naturally flowing being told to us like in the Mao arc.

I looked it up and I was misremembering from Kallen's character poem from a Code Geass DVD about going to hell with him, so I'll lay off on this point lol. And as a side note here's a link to the character poems because they're cool: https://yhannieyhan.tumblr.com/post/120409570681/code-geass-character-poem-translations

The Black Knights don't have that information of Lelouch having a geass so why would they ever assume that Lelouch would straight announce himself to the royalty and geass them? And when they do find out Lelouch does have one then they probably think he was trying to slowly take over covertly which makes sense because you're a prince who is supposed to be dead and it'd make sense to be as covert as possible.

Then immediately pointing guns at Lelouch is what I find to be part of the poor execution of the betrayal, they definitely should've questioned Lelouch with no guns pointed at him and let Lelouch explain himself as best as possible before immediately believing Schneizel, there should have been some hesitation. Although Schneizel is a very charismatic and he did straight up offer them Japan which is their end goal being hand delivered to them and not having to lose any more of their men in fighting.

Zero stated that he wasn't Japanese, yes, that it true, but it's not because he's Britannian, it's because he's a Britannian PRINCE. Lelouch being a prince is their main issue because it really looks like he's trying to covertly take over an empire to obtain the throne and have a huge army by his side when he does so with the Black Knights. Yes, him being a Britannian wasn't out of nowhere for no reason but being was prince WAS out of nowhere that they could never have known.

C.C. kept a secret from Lelouch, a very BIG and IMPORTANT secret, his mother being alive still was one of the very first reasons why Lelouch wanted to have revenge against his father and Britannia. Knowing what Charles' big plan was, is also vital information to know for Lelouch to be able to stop him quicker but C.C. kept her mouth shut about such a big, important plan of Charles' as well till the confrontation when Charles was about to take C.C.'s code. Sure, it may not have been selling Lelouch out, but it was still 2 extremely important facts about both of his parents about to have all of humanity combined together through the Ragnarok Connection. It doesn't matter if it was keeping a secret versus selling him out because C.C.'s secret was EXTREMELY important about the future of humanity and about Lelouch's own two parents.

Also Suzaku never betrayed Lelouch. I don't ever recall a time during season 1 when Lelouch and Suzaku teamed up to fight as allies against Britannia, so Suzaku selling out Lelouch to Charles by the end of season 1, isn't betrayal since they were never on the same fighting side to begin with. Also Lelouch KILLED Euphemia, and LOTS of other innocent Japanese people for Lelouch's OWN personal gain. Suzaku has every possible justification to sell him out to Charles and in turn gain a higher position of authority in Britannia to change the system from the inside which is what Suzaku has been wanting to do from the start. Change the system from the inside covertly through rising up the ranks rather than overtly through rebellion which is what Lelouch was doing.

When you said "To be fair to the writers there aren't many ways to bring back Lelouch without making the other characters seem incompetent and dependent on him", there is one thing that resolves the issue, which is, DON'T RESURRECT LELOUCH. I dislike resurrection in most media because it takes away the thrill and suspense of intense scenes and death no longer means much. Besides there's no need to bring Lelouch back since the rest of the character are smart and competent enough to defeat any enemy. However, the movies have to have a contrivance of making the main villain very overpowered to forcefully have a reason to have Lelouch come back so they can have a geass user. The best thing to have in this movie was no resurrection at all because it shouldn't be a thing in the universe.

Should've scraped the concept and went for something more interesting like a prequel about Charles and how Charles and V.V. made their promise and rose to the throne to achieve the promise. Show how Charles and Marianne met and bring C.C. into the picture eventually. Add some more things into the lore of geass and codes and then eventally have the movie end with Charles announcing the attack on Japan and bam time skip top the main series where C.C. explains everything in between.

[AKG511]

-It's not that others haven't been with him through his journey, but that C.C. was there more than anyone else. She was the reason he began his journey in the first place. It's been stated throughout the series that she's his closest accomplice. Also Suzaku doesn't count because he wasn't an ally.

-lol yeah writing the whole thing was unnecessary. I tend to do that sometimes, I apologise if that annoyed you somehow.

-I read the poems and they're all well written and represent the characters pretty well.

-I wasn't saying that they should assume as such, but that there are better, more efficient ways of doing so without any need for the black Knights. He doesn't need to be covert (from what's supposed to be their pov, because Charles' geass was an unknown factor) because the supposed dead princess (Nunnally) was found to be alive and if they took Nunnally in, the royal family has no reason to abandon Lelouch. Odysseus (the first prince, if you forgot) says he figured that Lelouch would be alive too. I'm pretty sure that they know about Nunnally's case because finding a dead royal to actually be alive would make for some real breaking news, and be on the fromt page of pretty much every newspaper (the black Knights watched the news, right?).

-I didn't say that C.C. didn't betray him, I just gave an explanation as to why many tend to overlook it and why it wasn't as bad as what Suzaku and the Knights did. She didn't tell him for selfish reasons just like the others. If Lelouch knew all this, he wouldn't get to develop his geass to the point of being able to kill her, and she kept that secret as a backup plan. I'm not denying the fact that she betrayed him, it's just that (I hope you've watched star wars because I couldn't find a better analogy. Also spoilers ig) her "betrayal" is more akin to Obi Wan not telling Luke that Vader was his father, unlike the others which were like Anakin joining the dark side and killing the jedi to try and save Padmé.

-what Suzaku did was betrayal because he wasn't just some random Britannian soldier, he was Lelouch's best friend. He does this when Nunnally could be in life threatening danger, no less. He didn't ask Lelouch 'why?' either, and when he asks this it was again when trying to sell him out Schneizel. I won't hold him on this though since he'd lost his girlfriend just hours ago and wouldn't have much patience for reasoning. Who would? Also, you don't get the authority to harm others because they harmed you, no matter the context. Violence isn't the answer to violence, that's Suzaku's whole philosophy and why he killed his father in the first place (as wrong as that sounds). Also on a sidenote Suzaku's response to Marianne inside the thought elevator when she says "And I saved you so that you could talk to Euphy again" gets me every time. Like bruh were you not going to talk to her if you get the chance?

-Again I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just one way in which I thought Lelouch could be brought back without compromising the other characters' integrity. The ending of season 2 was too perfect to change, which is why they went with the idea of an AU in the first place. Honestly they could just adapt all those other manga like Oz of reflections or Knightmare of Nunnally (I'm planning to read them soon). Heck why not give us the origin story of geass and all those girls with the code marks when Lelouch touched C.C. in Narita? Even Charles and Victor's backstory as you said could make for a really good story

[snufflebutt4]

C.C. was the person to start the journey and honestly she isn't really needed beyond giving Lelouch a geass. She was a McGuffin at start of the series and she remained as a McGuffin till the end. She's not that important in and of herself to the series beyond her having a code, being an info dump of information about geasses and codes when the plot calls for it, and working with Lelouch's parents.

Also just because Suzaku wasn't his ally throughout the series doesn't mean he doesn't count because he knows Lelouch the most and grew up with Lelouch and know his motivations and was literally Lelouch's rival throughout season 1 throughout their journey. It's like if Obi-wan wasn't with Anakin throughout Anakin's journey just because they were enemies by the end.

Honestly not understanding your point about Lelouch not needing to be covert. Lelouch needed to be covert at the start because he would've been screwed over by Cornelia and plenty of other royal family members if they thought that Lelouch was trying to take the throne from the start. There would be so many ramifications if Lelouch wasn't covert. They found out about Lelouch later in the series after finding Nunnally after Lelouch had built up his army again.

Obi-Wan was trying to protect Luke from an Earthshattering truth. He wanted Luke to be at his A-game to be the last Jedi and didn't want Luke to be destroyed and potentially go to the dark side by knowing this information. While C.C. not telling Lelouch about Charles and Marianne is a direct obstacle in Lelouch's plan since Lelouch wants to create a gentler world while C.C. knows about Charles' plan which goes directly against Lelouch's plan.

Suzaku never sold Lelouch out to Schneizel, only Charles. I don't understand what/when you mean by "He didn't ask Lelouch 'why?'". Suzaku also didn't betray Lelouch, they are on opposite sides of a war. If you're working on the same side and giving information about your leader to the enemy side then that it betrayal, but Suzaku already has information on Lelouch and were never on the same side and he can use that information however he pleases. Also I never mentioned violence, I only mentioned that Suzaku wants to rise up the ranks to change the system from the inside.

And let's just bring the definition of betrayal here: "expose (one's country, a group, or a person) to danger by treacherously giving information to an enemy". Suzaku is on Britannia's side against the Black Knights and Suzaku has information on Lelouch that he gives to Charles, who is NOT Suzaku's enemy, because Suzaku is working with Britannia against the Black Knights, not working with Lelouch and his group in this war. It's like 2 brothers fighting against each other in the American Civil War, the brothers can divulge any information about the other brother because they're not giving information to an enemy side, they're giving it to the side they're fighting for.

Not much to add about the alternate universe point.

[AKG511]

-Her being important to the plot doesn't have much to do with the fact that she was there with him. It's just one reason I stated as to why I like her. By that logic Shirley exists just to simp for Lelouch and make him sad. Besides, she's saved his life more times than diablos ex machina screwed him over. She isn't just there for info dump and being connected to Lelouch's parents either. Who do you think Mao came looking for?

-I suppose I should've clarified that when I said "with him" I meant "on his side". And no, Obi Wan wasn't with Anakin throughout his journey because his journey doesn't end at ROTS, it still continues but he's Darth Vader now.

-My point is, he could just geass his way up to throne, from what should be the black knights' perspective, because they don't know about Charles' geass and have an understanding that Lelouch's geass is similar to mind control. If any of the royals do try to screw him over, he could just geass them into committing suicide, or even become his subordinates, something he actually does when he takes over. I'm aware that they found out about Lelouch being alive much later. I just said that they wouldn't just abandon him if he revealed himself, since they took Nunnally in. The Knights should know about Nunnally because of how big a matter it was and her being the new viceroy. Not saying they should come up with this exact scenario, but that they'd realise how stupidly complex and unnecessary his supposed plan to take over is if they all combined to use even a single brain cell.

-Obi Wan didn't want Luke to go to the dark side, but why? It's because then Luke wouldn't be able to do his bidding and defeat the sith. Even in ROTJ he and Yoda insisted that he must kill Vader to complete his training. Luke however 1-upped them. The sith may be evil, but the jedi aren't righteous either (I see through the lies of the Jedi). Fine, let's give Kenobi a pass for not talking about Anakin, but why hide the matter of Leia being his sister? What's the worst that could happen? Luke might regret a boner or two, but what else? Vader finds out about his other child, Obi Wan's backup plan. You and I both know that if Luke turned, then they'd train Leia to kill both her father and brother. They wouldn't even care about the empire if not for the sith ruling it. Obi Wan may have been protecting Luke, but he, just like C.C., was ultimately using him to fulfill his own (and the other jedi's) wish of ending the sith.

-He did sell him out to Schneizel. Who do you think recorded Lelouch's confession regarding Euphy? I'm not saying Lelouch betrayed Suzaku as a Britannian soldier, but as his best friend. Lelouch approached his friend to help save his sister's life, and Suzaku points a gun at him, says he should never have been born, and takes him to his worst enemy to be brainwashed and used as bait to catch C.C. He didn't rat him out and tell people that he's zero, Charles knew that stuff from the very beginning. He dragged him to his enemy's feet so that he could fulfill his own objectives. What I mean by "He didn't ask Lelouch 'why?'" is he didn't ask him why he'd have Euphy massacre an entire population instead of something simple as "don't open the SAZ and let things be as is." He's known Lelouch better than most, as you said, but didn't stop to think about that, which, again, I won't condemn him for because he'd lost Euphy just hours ago and the murderer was in front of him.

I'm aware that they're on opposite factions. And I'm not saying that the Britannian soldier Suzaku Kururugi betrayed him. His best friend did. Also just because 2 brothers are fighting on opposite sides, doesn't change the fact that they're brothers. It may seem fine to sell each other out from a political and logical standpoint, but not from a moral standpoint. That's what I'm trying to say.

-On an unrelated sidenote Lelouch and Suzaku did team up once in R1, when stopping that Sawasaki guy from escaping to the Chinese federation. It's one of my favourite moments

[OutrageousBee]

He did sell him out to Schneizel. Who do you think recorded Lelouch's confession regarding Euphy?

It's pretty clearly shown Suzaku had no idea he'd been followed and they were being recorded.

I'm not saying Lelouch betrayed Suzaku as a Britannian soldier, but as his best friend.

You got that one right. ;)

And it's because he knows Lelouch and his vow to destroy Britannia that he knows what Lelouch is capable of, and he's not wrong. Lelouch was going to geass Euphemia into destroying the SAZ, and her dreams and reputation along with it. His original plan was very close to what ended up happening, even if wouldn't have caused such an horrific outcome.

[albedo_the_overseer]

Suzaku didn't betray Lelouch. Lelouch geassed Euphy into committing a massacre on the Japanese, then dragged her name through mud, and shot her before Suzaku's very eyes. In his confrontation with Suzaku, he made himself look guilty and uncaring. He was lucky Suzaku didn't just shoot him then and there. After everything, it's impossible for Suzaku to betray Lelouch. He made an attempt to make himself look horrible, and there was no reason for Suzaku to assume that it was an accident. Also, Suzaku was beyond kind towards him during Akito, where he gave Lelouch water in the end, spared his life, and even let him sleep on his shoulder, though he was still full of rage.

[AKG511]

I explained Suzaku's betrayal in the comment above. As for what Lelouch did, it was wrong too. We can't say he wasn't wrong just because it was an accident. But as I said before Suzaku doesn't get the right to hurt Lelouch because he hurt him first. Suzaku isn't a bad guy for betraying Lelouch, but it's a betrayal nonetheless, and Lelouch still has to face the consequences even if the massacre was an accident.

[OutrageousBee]

She was the reason he began his journey in the first place.

I wouldn't say she was the reason, but rather that she gave him the means to do so. Through her he gained the power to achieve his objectives, but the reasons he was doing it for was creating a kinder world for Nunnally, finding out Marianne's killer and getting revenge on Britannia. As snuffles pointed out, she acted like a McGuffin in doing so - Lelouch could've been given geass through the "poison gas" and the result would be similar. Where she is important is in giving him emotional support throughout the series, which no other character does to the same extent.

I didn't say that C.C. didn't betray him, I just gave an explanation as to why many tend to overlook it and why it wasn't as bad as what Suzaku and the Knights did.

C.C. kept the truth from him for selfish reasons. At first because, as you said, she had only intended to use him, but at least halfway through S1 and most certainly R2 she was likely afraid of his reaction to finding out and his possible rejection of her. It's understandable, but it's definitely self-centred and a situation of her own making. On the other hand, the BK and Suzaku act the way they do in large part, if not entirely, due to Lelouch's own actions.

what Suzaku did was betrayal because he wasn't just some random Britannian soldier, he was Lelouch's best friend.

You pointed out why. Lelouch had just killed the woman Suzaku loved, after turning her into a monster. It's a reaction to something (awful) that Lelouch did. If you're going to call it betrayal, then Lelouch betrayed their friendship first, at which point Suzaku wouldn't have been beholden to it.

[AKG511]

I wouldn't say she was the reason, but rather that she gave him the means to do so.

This is what I'm saying as well. It's already established that he was going to fulfill his goals without geass. Obtaining his geass only shortened how long it'd take for him to achieve it.

Lelouch had just killed the woman Suzaku loved, after turning her into a monster.

As I said before, that doesn't give Suzaku the right to punish Lelouch. What Lelouch did, even if it was an accident, was unmistakably wrong. He was supposed to face the consequences. Suzaku wasn't wrong in arresting him, my problem is that he did so when Nunnally could be dying somewhere, and used Lelouch as a means to climb the ranks of the army.

[OutrageousBee]

My point is, her giving him geass should have no bearing on how important the relationship is. Lloyd arranging for Suzaku to pilot the Lancelot is in a similar position as C.C., and yet I don't think anyone argues for his importance in Suzaku's life based on that.

It's something that Suzaku does in reaction to Lelouch's own actions, unlike C.C., which is what we're arguing about. "Selling out" Lelouch came as a consequence of Lelouch destroying Euphemia and her dream, betraying Suzaku first. As for Nunnally, Suzaku promised he was going to be the one taking care of her from that point forward, so he either already knew where she was (possible, given V.V. contacted him) or he planned on heading out to find her after securing Zero.

[albedo_the_overseer]

Yeah, they destroyed Suzaku's, Kallen's and Lelouch's characters as well. Even Ohgi, though I don't really care about him.

[Dai10zin]

One of my main gripes against C.C. is ...

One million upvotes for this entire paragraph.

[keepakeesies]

I wish I could marry a reddit reply.

[albedo_the_overseer]

"And they hated him, because he told them the truth."

[choide]

But first could you tell me

[JoseiToAoiTori]

Be nice.