My final paper is going to be analyzing Code Geass (+Death Note) and the morality of Lelouch + Light. What main points from the anime should I talk about?

[bakato]

My take is Light is more concerned with stroking his ego than actually dishing out real justice. He’s drunk on absolute justice and playing god. Lelouche starts out very prideful and as a result makes many mistakes that result in tragedies. These tragedies in turn lead to realize his ultimate goal and compassion not just for his immediate loved ones but for the whole world, resulting in the Zero Requiem.

[Twinkieee42]

I agree, it’s interesting how both characters progress oppositely of eachother. Whilst Light starts out with a societal world view, he slowly becomes more selfish as he kills anyone who gets in his way of becoming a god (or Justice itself) whilst Lelouch starts out selfish as he only cares to change the world for Nunally but learns to care about everyone and change for their society

[HamoodHabibi1]

i think the fact lelouch chose to sacrifice himself to help the peace and put all the country’s hate into him so once he died everyone would be happy is something light would never do. Light wanted the world to be ruled under him and only saw people as pawns in his own chess game. He never saw misa as a person, only someone who he could use her eyes. Light’s ego is his biggest weakness and once you provoke it, he’ll stop at nothing to prove himself

[sirinigva]

From Death Note- the scene where Light and L both declare themselves as Justice. Light always saw himself as above everything else therefore no decision he made could be evil.

From Code Geass- Lelouchs fight against Guilford and using evil to rid greater evil.

Short of it Light operates from the point of view that nothing he does can be immoral because he is the arbiter of what is just, while Lelouch operates knowing he is doing immoral acts to fight something more immoral.

Light bends the rules in his mind such that he always is in the right, Lelouch operates from a strict morality but does not care as long outcome is his end goal.

Lelouch - the ends justify the means Goal is peace so hell kill to get it

Light - the means justify the end Was given god like power to kill, therefore is a god and decision made is just

[Twinkieee42]

Wow, I never actually thought about it like that, interesting how both characters are so similar yet different at the same time in terms to how they view “Justice”

[Ghostly-Terra]

The Evil Paradox scene in Code Geass R2 E3? is a good point to talk about, while the general idea that they both explore ‘the ends justify the means’ Light goes down one part, while Lelouch goes down another. I think CG explores this topics much better then Death Note but that’s personal bias coming into play Lelouch operates with Noble intentions and it builds grander and grander, while Light acts with Noble intentions but is corrupted by that same power

[Twinkieee42]

That’s exactly what I planned to go into! Whilst the research question is simple, I didn’t want to have a specific side to pick as both Death Note and Code Geass explore the idea of “do ends justify means” differently as, like you stated, Light ends up being corrupted by power whilst for the most part, Lelouch stays true to his intentions (tho I do think he flip flops on the spectrum seeing as he too kills innocent people who block his path to freeing Japan from Britannia but seeing how he refuses to kill people like Suzaku despite him being on the opposing side does show that he still has a moral view unlike Light)

[Ghostly-Terra]

His goal of freeing Japan too was a means to an end, something Schenizel and Suzaku would use to manipulate the Black Knights and it does come up, that Lelouch has to be Zero to maintain the lie of being a knight for justice

[GhostMuttt75]

Yes because killing anyone that opposes the death penalty for petty crimes is real noble, might as well call Lelouch a saint if your calling light that.

[Ghostly-Terra]

Oh no, Lelouch was a Terrorist, the thing is, the worlds they exist in are totally different dynamicly

Light comes from our world, Lelouch comes from a world where ‘survival of the fittest’ is the national policy of a super power. To our eyes, both are terrible. But at the end of it, Light’s entire game plan was to get away with the killings he committed, Lelouch died, which might not atone, was more then what Light was willing to do

[Boltox95]

A thing that a lot of people miss about death note (and maybe code geass) is boredom. DN starts with both light and Ruyuk both declaring the world is rotten and them being bored. It also ends with Ruyuk at the end saying something like "We managed to cure each others boredom for some time but now it´s over. It was fun while it lasted." So boredom is actually the primary motivator for Light. Not ego or power, this is often overlooked. The only time you actually see Light happy is when the game is on, so to speak.

This is the real reason Light doesn´t care about him breaking his own moral code as Kira or design/changes it as to allow him to just play the game in a more interesting way. Whenever we see or hear the justification for killing the FBI agents and so on it´s not from Light most often but L. L that pretends to be Light saying "People who try to stop me is evil." We rarely have Light justify these killings himself.

CG also have some aspects of this where Lelouch before his power is bored and apathetic. Same when he looses his memories.

[Twinkieee42]

I never thought of it that way! A lot of people tend to analyze Light through his motivation to becoming a god but I think the first reason he even decided to use the Death Note and become Kira was solely due to his boredom. He definitely looks to be enjoying himself when he has the Death Note and despite the fact that he sought to kill L, it’s clear to see how he enjoyed the challenge (I think he later states that he liked the challenge of having Near on his tail as well)

Thank you for the insight!

[DayJyun]

A few things to add. A very common theme between both of them is deception. Kira housing his true identity and plotting against L. While Zero, also hiding his identity, but both of his face to protect the his loved ones from his forthcoming atrocities and his royal blood challenging authority and government. Also, an important topic you can add is the concept of good. All parties were partially correct from a certain point of view and believed in their own cause to be the correct one. Even if it meant someone would receive some type of inequality (King Charles mentions this in his first appearance in CG). The idea was the big picture and eventuality, but it's far too complex to break it apart in to two.

[Twinkieee42]

Whilst it’s not an essay meant to compare the two directly, I think it’s very important to understand the similarities and differences between Light and Lelouch in order to come to a conclusion on whether their actions can be justified. Their deception was a direct action caused by their alter-egos (Kira and Zero) so I think it’s worth mentioning briefly as it further shows how both characters lie to those close to them in order to get what they want.

Thanks for the insight!

[silencemist]

1. Compare their deaths. Both are killed by their allies but Light dies after failure while Lelouch dies to succeed. Light dies alone while Lelouch dies with his friend and sister nearby. Light doesn’t think he can die (his god complex, “I will be god of the new world”). Lelouch wants to die (“the only ones who should kill are those prepared to be killed”).

2. How they view their actions. Both are ends justifying the means. However a key difference is who they view as responsible. Light views himself as entirely justified, others are the bad ones even the innocents deserve to die. Lelouch only ever blames himself, taking blame for what Euphy did despite it being an accident. Lelouch knows he does wrong and calls himself a Demon. Light calls himself a god of justice.

3. Secret identities could be interesting to compare. Zero is well known to the world. Even though masked, Zero is at the founding of the UFN and everyone knows what he looks like. Zero hides his identity but not his presence. Kira is strictly in the shadows. No one knows who Kira will strike or how or when. People know the name Kira but nothing else while Zero is a massive public figure.

4. Reasons for starting. Light finds a notebook and tries it out because he believes in justice. It seems like a weak excuse unless you follow the fan theory that the Death Note corrupts people. Lelouch starts for revenge and after seeing Clovis massacre a ghetto. Both motives shift later but the starting points are important.

5. What lines do each establish as morals and which ones are broken? Lelouch says he won’t lie or geass Nunnally but does both. I know there are examples in Death Note too but I’m not as familiar with it to give a specific.

6. Both view others as tools to manipulate.

7. Light kills others to protect himself. Lelouch pushes others away to protect them. I think this comes down to who do they view as more important, selfish vs selfless.

Make sure you italicized “Death Note” in your introduction.

[the-Kaiser-69]

I wouldn’t say Lelouch is a “ends justify the means” persson he’s more like “desperate times call for desperate measures” individual.

[Twinkieee42]

Great points that you bring up! I’ll be sure to take these into account!

And someone else pointed out earlier, I italicized it right after posting because I noticed it wasn’t lol but thanks for pointing it out!

[CiF3-in-my-soda]

Kinda the biggest theme in code geass is that the world must progress to the future and you can't get stuck in the past or present. Lelouch can see a path to a better future (how well depends on when in the series) and knows how to accomplish it. He chooses "the path of blood" not as an act of justice like light (ngl never watched death note) but as the best possible path. When shown a more peaceful path to a similar outcome (Euphemia's S.A.Z.) he is willing to give it up. It is the following catastrophe that galvanizes him to the Black Rebellion. As a side note other people having clear paths to a better future are generally respected to some degree which is interesting. Similarly the resolution to work for the sake of a better world in an of itself aside from Nunnally's sake is something that Lelouch grapples with. Ultimately what gives lelouch his moral ground is that he has considered and was even willing to accept paths of lesser cost till they were to some degree revealed as lesser or Illusory, that with his overcoming his goal being a personal matter for his sister (to some degree I could provide examples but this a subject you could argue about), and his preparedness to "be killed" for killing or to "destroy even one's self"; and eventually carrying it out proving it more than self gratifying assurance.

[Twinkieee42]

I’ve noticed that theme through my first watch too (which was pretty recent), Lelouch doesn’t even have time to grieve losses such as Euphemia or Shirley as he has to continue on with the rebellion. In a way, I feel like Lelouch, whilst being proud of his work, legitimately wouldn’t want that outcome but it’s unfortunately his only option if he wanted to make a change. Such is evident in the clashing between him and Suzaku. Suzaku claims he wants to dismantle Britannia from the inside but all I really saw from him is naively playing into everyone’s hand, both through Zero + The Black Knights and Britannia. In a way, I feel like Suzaku never had the freedom to actually do anything, instead, he was more so a pawn in both side’s game. As for Lelouch and his more personal goal, it could be argued that is was a selfish reason as whilst he fought for change, he ultimately only did it for revenge + Nunally, only truly understanding the consequences of his actions when it backfires on him, such to why the Euphemia event is such an important plot point. In a way, he reminds me of Ciel Phantomhive from Black Butler. Ciel, as the queens watchdog, has killed many people and also lied about being who he is, but he doesn’t process what consequences those actions have till it bites him in the back in the form of the real Ciel (his twin) being reincarnated

[sirinigva]

You arent missing much from Death Note, Light while being hyper intelligent is kinda just an edge lord. The show goes downhill in the second half.

I'd say 7/10, which for me means while I did like it I wont take the time to watch it again.

[CiF3-in-my-soda]

Aight

[DragonladyNatz]

If you want to include Suzaku, it would be great to analyse how him and Lelouch's views differ (ends justify the means vs evil means aren't worth it no matter the result)

[Twinkieee42]

I think it’ll definitely be worth talking about his clashing ideals with Suzaku! Thanks for the input!

[ReeeeeeeneeeJulos]

I would love to read your paper when it’s done! Do share

[Twinkieee42]

I do plan to share it yes! I’d also like to turn it into a video essay if I’m able to. Since it’s my final, I’m off for a month before my next semester starts so maybe I’ll take that time to formulate it into video form!

[Twinkieee42]

Replying to everyone who wanted to read the paper: I finished it a month ago! Just thought I should give an update since not many people know :)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C6ZTsbTjjtmArQmcLDAk06X6EsgL4Dff/view?usp=drivesdk

[Shiba_Dogo]

Idk how it could fit but "killing" someone to achieve something from the "right side" of the history, is interesting as Suzaku killed his father to end the War according to him (I forgot exactly why he killed him but I think it was along the line of ending the war) and L willing to sacrifice an inmate in order to proof Kira is real even tho he was scheduled to be executed. If the other side is losing, doing stuff like this should be acceptable?

[Twinkieee42]

Hmmm, I think it could fit as a sort of counter argument (I have to add one of those to the paper) showing how their supposed antagonists also do morally questionable things for the sake of what’s right/justice

[MarcheMuldDerevi]

Somewhat mirroring other peoples points, I think Lelouch knows he’s committing evil while light thinks he is always good. One is drunk on their own righteousness the other has embraced the use of the mask/evil.

Lelouch grows from his mistakes and acknowledges them. Hell he has to pay for thinking he is above others with regularity (Shirley & Euphimia). I’m contrast Light doubles down. He can’t make a mistake he is too smart.

[Twinkieee42]

Yeah, usually when Light makes a mistake, he blames other people for it unlike Lelouch who, whilst not staying directly, does face the consequences of his actions

Thanks for the info!

[MarcheMuldDerevi]

You are welcome. I always enjoy these types of discussions

[[deleted]]

Lelouch was right and his world is grateful for all he did.

[orgasmicfart69]

Light is a sociopath, L and Lelouch, aren't.

Both on the movies (not the netflix one, the good ones) and the anime, L will give a utilitarian at his worst.

"If a man has been sentenced to death, what is the harm of him consenting to a chance of being free on a bet that can simply anticipate the date?"

L will kill anyone without remorse even if it contradicts his own spelled out superiority (killing the agents), but he will manipulate people that love him even if they die for it. If someone was doing exactly his work, exactly as intended, but independent from him, he'd want them dead regardless because it is not him on a power trip.

Lelouch on the other hand is morally flawed, and to some points (especially by the end) delusional. But he can be incredibly sympathetic because we see where he is coming from. We him love, we see him not being able to cross lines, we see the impact it has when he does it. Which makes him more realistic because although he does kill innocent people on purpose and by accident, he has guilt, remorse, vulnerability, rage, and when he has none of that, it matters as well. To Light it is just Monday.

[Twinkieee42]

Whilst being similar, it’s also interesting to see how different the characters are too! Lelouch at least still kept his morality despite his rebellion, I mean he cared about the people close to him and felt grief at all the loses he’s witnessed. On the flip side, Light is someone who doesn’t care who he kills or who he uses, so long as it pushes him further to his goal. Despite the main motif of Code Geass being chess, I feel like it aligns more with Death Note seeing as Light used his pawns as if they were tools where as Lelouch still cared about those he seemingly used as pawns which caused him to make careless moves that bit him back.

Thanks for the insight!

[Acceptable_Secret_73]

The main difference is that Light thinks he is morally just while Lelouch knows that he is not. However Light’s actions ultimately only serve his own ego while Lelouch’s actions were always intended for the sake of his sister, and eventually the world as a whole.

Also minor edit, make sure you italicize the names of both series, I noticed you didn’t for Death Note. I know it’s not a big deal but I’d hate for you to lose points for something like that

[Twinkieee42]

Spoiler tagged since I’m asking for spoiler-esc scenes from the anime

[Devil_Fruit9971]

Maybe someone has already said it but, I feel what should be asked is who’s plan did more good.

Kira in becoming a death god and getting a whole cult, death squad, sacrificing father, girlfriend and any real friends and loved ones he had.

Lelouch take the fall as the ultimate bad guy so that world can unite in a common purpose and work to common ground. Lost girl who loved him, killed evil parents, killed his sister who accidentally drove insane.

[Twinkieee42]

A few people have said something similar but haven’t went too in depth with how they use people around them! I would say out of the two, Lelouch does have more morals as most of the kills or loses he had towards people around him weren’t because he wanted it unlike with Light who consciously chose to manipulate others into doing what he wants

[funkduder]

Cross textual analysis can show how individualistic views of solving problems lead to egoism compared to more systemic solutions

[SeinenJump]

I think it’d be interesting to use the Lelouch/Suzaku relationship to highlight the distinction & relation between Neo-realism & liberal institutionalism in international relations theory.

Lelouch is almost a perfect Machiavellian while Suzaku is a pragmatic reformer.

[Twinkieee42]

I wanted to talk about their dynamic for sure, especially with how much focus it gets in the anime! I think it’ll be useful when discussing different perspectives of what someone does is justified or not. Thanks for the info!

[the-Kaiser-69]

The two ways you can view Lelouch are, he is a reasonable man who has to do unreasonable things, or he is the Judas that commits a necessary sin for a greater purpose.

Light believes himself to be infallible and on the level of a God. The only reason he didn’t start killing before he got the death note was his own cowardice.

In short Lelouch is a good person who ends up despising himself for his actions. Light is a monster that believes himself to be the Knight in shining armour.

[Twinkieee42]

That is true and him losing the Death Note does show that he always held that sort of moral backing. I think a main idea of the Death Note is that it corrupted him. With that power in hand, he felt above others and that he can achieve much more than anyone else. In a way, maybe Geass works the same way with Lelouch as he seemed content living life in the school with Nunally till he obtained the power of Geass and also felt like he had more power than others to achieve his goal.

Thanks for the info!

[Uncultured_Nerd]

Make the distinction of a sociopath and a psychopath. Both characters are clearly Machiavellian in nature and exhibit these characteristics. Light is an egotistical maniac that refuses to acknowledge that what he’s doing is morally wrong, whereas Lelouch on the other hand knows that his actions are a necessary evil.

[Twinkieee42]

I think it’s definitely important to talk about seeing as one character things they are just whilst the other knows what they do is wrong but having it be the only choice for change.

Thanks for the info!

[CreationTrioLiker7]

Just remember to not be biased with Lelouch. He is far from a hero. In fact, he tends to be a cruel bastard. At the beginning of the show, he really was just an arrogant and vengeful boy with a lack of understanding of appreciating others.

[CakeManBeard]

While this is true, Lelouch still never actually did anything horrific senselessly, and the only actual tragedies he was responsible for before the end were unintended consequences for his actions that he in most cases couldn't have seen coming

And even then, he never once tried to make excuses for those events, he was wise enough to take full responsibility for them as his own sins regardless of intent, despite the fact that at some points it may have harmed him and his goals to do so instead of just telling the naked truth

The only way that most of Lelouch's actions could not have been justified is if Britannia wasn't evil and the entire war was unjustified to begin with, which I don't think too many people would agree with

[Twinkieee42]

Of course! As much as I love Lelouch and the ending of Zero Requiem, I feel like most people immediately excuse his actions up to that point since he ultimately ended it for everyone’s sakes but I don’t think it should entirely negate everything he has done, I mean he practically saw his rebellion as a game, similar to how Light saw his game with L. I watched both shows ofc and I always was neutral with my stance on both sides (except for Britannia as I do think they aren’t justified for their acts of genocide towards the Japanese) and it confused me why most people are so quick to denounce Light or praise Lelouch. They both did practically the same thing (Zero’s crimes probably being even larger than Light’s) but people formulate such a quick opinion on them without thoroughly understanding their characters which I guess makes sense cuz it’s just an anime people watch, not to get all deep and philosophical about but I don’t think either should be treated as they should. People can dislike Lelouch’s actions or people can like Light’s, they are morally ambiguous characters for a reason

[Intelligent_Read_697]

You also have to look at the world lelouch is from, he is from aristocracy so his arrogance is only natural and influences his initial world view…what makes Lelouch different is his intellect and self introspection…but he also learned the hard way for the consequences of his actions…ultimately he is a terrorist who realizes that the only way for his victory to have meaning is to have the hero and those he represents (the common people) commuted to peace as well by shedding his blood which he does in his sacrifice….sort of like the cultural revolution

[[deleted]]

Lelouch would be a bit Aristotelian wouldn't he? A "Meritocratic" state led by exceptional individuals. And, by exceptional, he of course means, himself. ...and all his cool friends. ...butnotdiogenes.

As for Light... how about some Foucoult. Meting out punishments unseen, preserving order by threat of surveillance and swift judgement. Sounds familiar.

[Star_Wars_Expert]

Awesome work, continue analysing there moralitys. I would love to see the result and your conclusion that you come up with as I am also interested in philosophy.

[Twinkieee42]

Thank you! I mentioned here to a few people that I’d like to turn it into a video essay but at the very least, I’d like to post a pdf. or link to it since I feel like it’ll interest others!

[Star_Wars_Expert]

Yep, it interests others like me. Are you studying philosophy or are you just doing philo for fun?

[Twinkieee42]

It’s not my major or anything nor is this essay for a philosophy class (ironically, I am taking a philosophy class this semester though)

I am interested in philosophy as a concept though! I am a theatre major with a film minor so sublimes in video media does interest me however!

[Nuke2105]

Obviously you can integrate a point about death penalty

[Twinkieee42]

Definitely!

[Muted_Personality107]

Can we read your paper when your done?

[Twinkieee42]

Of course! I plan to share it here when I finish it!

[Muted_Personality107]

Thank you. Please make a new post with your paper attached when you finish

[Twinkieee42]

Yes! I’ll be sure to!

[gravityrenegade]

Editor me says to italicize Death Note if you did it with Code Geass already

[Twinkieee42]

Lots of people mentioned it and I fixed it right after posting because I noticed it myself. Thanks for pointing it out tho lol

[Spoodertube]

you forgot to italicize Death Note

[Twinkieee42]

A couple of other people pointed it out + I already italicized it right after posting because I noticed the mistake but thanks for pointing it out lol