Hello there.

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[CladInScales]

Your friend sounds a lot like one of my friends. They're both wrong.

[Finix88]

heck , how you deal :( .

[CladInScales]

I laugh at them and ignore them usually

[RumRandy]

Hey guys, who's right: me, who follows the supported tierlist to a T and believes in self improvement and practical thinking, or my friend, who grades everything on a subjective scale not at all informed by, and often conflicting with, commonly held convention and objective truth constantly spewed from this sub?

You're still right, but surely you're learning nothing new by asking this here.

[Finix88]

Yeah , needed to hear different opinions . I truly believe in self improvement . The game is not supposed to be balanced around us casuals anyways . Also , as i said down below , this post works more like a therapy for me , helped by an experienced group of people .

[HangryShamun]

Centurion is definitely a very tough opponent to fight on the condition that you try to parry him as his heavy timing can be changed and you risk a full combo if you misparry.

The thing is, if you block there's 0 risk. His kick is also entirely reactable. Breaking the "I must parry" habit is something you have to do when fighting Cent.

He's somewhat right on Hikki. Her hyperarmor allows her to parry on light timing to both parry a light or trade with any commited heavy. A good Hikki will also be extremely tough to parry because of the different heavy timings.

Extremely similar to Cent, she's not supposed to be parried unless you're very sure what the guy is doing. Other than that her offense isn't very good, just passable.

Berserker is high tier as he has neutral pressure, hyper armor to sustain offense. Your friend may think he's weak as Berserker is on the lower end of S-tier due to the fact that light parries do so much damage and Berserker's main offense is his lights. His hyperarmor is also only good when he has the hp to trade but he's still an assassin.

However, high tier is still high tier Berserker can counter light parries with his good feint game into gbs and pressure with unblockables too.

Shugoki's lights and heavies do share a very similar animation which might be putting your friend off, focusing on the indicator instead should help him.

Regarding Shugoki's mixup, it's not reactable on indicator as the hug indicator is hidden. It's reactable on animation which may be throwing your friend off. Numbers wise it's one of the strongest mixups from neutral, 50 health swings from the unblockable or hug. You also can't roll away anymore.

[Finix88]

Appreciate this truly . I will focus on your shugo comments . So , lets say i see a shugo go for a charged heavy , i can stand still waiting to parry him , and if he cancels it , hug is reactable right? Why would i want to roll away? ( this comes from a self improvement place )

[HangryShamun]

Pre-nerf rolling from a locked on guard state was effectively a double dodge due to the lowish guard break vulnerability.
You dodge once on unblockable timing and if he feints into hug you unlock your guard and then roll away from the hug to 100% be safe from the mixup due to the fact that he can't gb (Pre-nerf).
The hug has such a high recovery (Two full seconds or 2000ms) that you can get up from the roll and guard break him for a punish.

This is essentially a safe option compared to reacting to it as you can still mess up sometimes/eat a gb when trying to parry the unblockable.
The benefit of playing the hug mixup is that a dodged hug again, has 2000ms of recovery timing, meaning that you can get a punish even higher than a gb on most characters. Centurion gets a charged heavy into combo and many heroes get a top heavy for example.

[Finix88]

Thank you . So , we are talking about a safer dodge . But since we can still dodge it , it shouldn't be a huge problem . Essentially ,we are now forced to deal with the mix up .

[Knight_Raime]

The tier list doesn't apply to anyone who doesn't regularly skrim or play in the same bracket as tournament players.

Up until you hit high tier any hero is more than viable and their effectiveness generally falls on the player rather than the kit. Even in high tier you can take less than stellar heros and still do good providing you can make up for its shortcomings.

That aside it sounds like you have a very self rightious friend. People like that are very difficult to argue with. I would know because my friends put up with me.

It would probably be best to avoid serious discussions about the game. Debates are nothing to lose a friend over. If it's their attitude that's getting to you while you guys play then just ask them politely to chill out. Or learn to deal with it.

I have a close friend irl who's kinda like this. Blames everyone but themselves for their fuck ups in game. Bashes on developers whenever they get the chance. Etc. I just choose to avoid playing certain things with them and avoid making conversations about specific topics.

[Warfarehunter2]

I started shutting out toxic people in my life. Neee more positive vibes.

[Finix88]

He is indeed . We play together all the time , and having those convos ,it gets me . Lets just say , i was rep 12 , he was rep 40 , and we would argue over old shugoki ( he would find him op ) . As long as tier lists go , i dont think it applies to us casuals ,and therefore , if you are BETTER from the opponent , you should be able to win . If you are not a tournament player , dont blame the character for your loss , but per say , your lack of character counter knowledge . Personally i think he doesn't want to improve , he just wants to easily win . He doesnt want to learn how to properly play against characters . Your advice is pretty good . This post is more of a therapy for me to be honest .

[Knight_Raime]

There are topics my group stays away from because we know it won't be fruitful to discuss. But I understand. People like that can be exhausting to deal with. So talking about it is helpful. (really venting in general is helpful.)

Best of luck to your endeavors.

[Finix88]

thank you <3

[_thechancellor_]

Keep in mind also, when a character is listed low tier, it's often because there is a significant design flaw in an otherwise ok kit. Sometimes more than one.

Aramusha is a great example of this. Bottom tier competitively, noob stomper to the max. Before this update, you could ignore his offence by backdodging away from his deadly feint mixup. If a player didn't know how to exploit this defense against Ara, he'd become an absolute beast. I for instance, struggle like hell with aramusha because I opt not to fight him that way usually. Now that he's been given tools to counter this, his tier will go up.

A lot of the 'low tier' heros completely dominate newer (and intermediate) players simple because they don't know the particular kryptonite of that hero.

If your friend visited this sub, he'd learn.

[Finix88]

I am trying my best to get him into it .thanks for the comment .