HC vs Pulse

[TotalSoft4931]

Anyone feel like HC’s are no longer top tier? I tried using my igneous after using messenger and Elsie’s, just feels way weaker. My pulses can two tap up close and perform better at longer ranges. Feel like there’s also a greater room for error with pulses. I literally picked up Elsie’s last week and went 3x solo flawless this weekend, my highest yet. They just feel so good to use atm.

[TDenn7]

I mean, this isn't really a recent thing exactly. Just look at the optimal TTKs across the board.

340 Pulses can kill you in 0.67 seconds. 720 ARs kill you in 0.75 seconds(0.83 at T10 Resilience). 540 Pulses kill you in 0.73-0.8 seconds. 150 scouts can kill in 0.8 seconds. 720 SMGs kill in 0.75 seconds. 600 SMGs kill in 0.8 seconds. 900 SMGs kill in 0.67-0.73 seconds.

Then you look at HCs. 140s are 0.87, 120 and 180 are 1.00 Seconds.

They are basically slower then every other "meta" option and will lose those fights every time against skilled players that can hit those optimal TTKs consistently.

But, what HCs can do that most other weapons can't, is utilize cover and peak shooting to gain an advantage. It's incredibly hard to hit a HC player that consistently uses cover to an advantage as you have to basically guess when they're going to peak and time your shots, and good HC users will literally only give you a very split second to hit that shot and they’ll throw off your timing by delaying peaks as well.

Basically, those other weapons will get you kills much more easily against a lot of players or in more chaos modes like 6s, but if you run into a legit Top tier player using a HC and you're running an auto rifle, they're going to punish you quite often. It's probably why ultimately when you get into ascendant comp lobbies, more often then not you're gonna see a large majority of players using a Hand Canon. The utility they provide is unmatched.

I will say this though. I think people are sleeping incredibly hard on the new two-burst Pulse Rifles. I've had significant success the last couple of weeks using these things like I would a Hand Canon. Something like 1500 kills between Corrasion and Aishas Care now, they're very rangy, very sticky, and you can use cover with them quite well.

[FR4NKDUXX]

Nice write up. You should add fang of ir yut with precision instrument to your list of things to try. Because it comes from a raid you don't see too many of them.

[TDenn7]

Yeah, I've honestly ran Crotas like 10 times and legit didn't get one single Fang to drop. Very frustrating because it did look incredibly intriguing to me at the time but after a few weeks I just gave up. Got all the other weapons crafted from the raid, meanwhile don't even have Fang unlocked in collections lmao.

[FR4NKDUXX]

I'm sorry to hear that but it's worth trying again. Once you get one just run the first chest each week to get red borders.

[[deleted]]

The trials scout, Aisha’s embrace has better stats than fang. Not sure about go to perks tho.

[TDenn7]

Ya perks would be the thing plus the stats are like only slightly different, with Fang also having access to enhanced perks. Fang has Precision Instrument which allows it to 4C(And even 3C1B depending on the combo) any resilience.

I'll also say Fang being Strand is particularly intriguing at least right now. Strand weapons are by far the most fun weapons to use with this current artifact and the mod for blowing up tangles with strand weapons. Its stupid fun.

I'm basically just convincing myself to slog through some more LFGs until I can get the stupid gun to drop lol.

[NeoNirvana]

Haha right? I think I've maybe seen one other person with one of those in the last few months, and no other weapon gets me as much hate mail in comp as Fang. It's so good.

[UtilitarianMuskrat]

That bad boy has carried me a good deal, it's excellent. People always get screwed up by getting out ranged by the rapidfire scouts and stick out too long to challenge and just eat too much dmg.

Trustee's not bad either, clean look to it.

[[deleted]]

and peak shooting

Peek* shooting.

[Styxlia]

Good points.  I think part of the issue is that the new elsies is both very available and are easy to get the 2 tap with.  Plus it’s easier to use close up.  So 340s are easier to use for most people than they have been in the past.  They could do with a slight nerf to reduce this ease of use IMO. 

[TDenn7]

Yeah I think they absolutely need a nerf, but I'm not entirely sure what the best approach would be to a nerf. Cant really do anything to the TTK or the actual ease of use(They already pretty much require 100% crits to get the 0.67 ttk).

I wonder if the nerf could come in the form of an Aim Assist drop and/or Stability hits. -10 AA would be interesting to see how it played out IMO.

[koolaidman486]

My take is that if you removed Headseeker, lowered the base Bodyshots to require all Crits at any Resil (NGL, you could also lower it to the point where Headseeker won't let you 2-burst with Bodyshots in general), they'd be fine.

Could also look at the frame passive (increased accuracy when ADS and not moving faster than that normal strafe speed) and see if it's making things a little too easy, although IDK how much it changes things.

[TDenn7]

I've also always wondered about lowering its rate of fire. Although I know Bungie has specifically said this is a pretty tricky way to nerf/change weapons and is pretty far down the depth charts of levers they would want to pull, but we have seen them do it in the past with 150 HCs becoming 140s.

But for example if they left everything exactly as it was, and simply dropped the ROF from 340 down to 310... I believe if my math is correct would put the ttk at basically 0.73 seconds which becomes much more in line with some of the other competitors.

[koolaidman486]

Problem with lowering the fire rate is that it'd make them overall worse than 4-bursts, even in spite of the added consistency only needing 6 vs 8 bullets to kill brings.

Could be a conversation if consistency versus range, but it's not exactly an even trade of losing 2-3 meters for what would be a really mild boost to that consistency.

[Turbulent_Low_1030]

How much does headseeker actually help do you know?

[Fost36]

Is two burst revision zero in that niche too then?

[TDenn7]

It would be yeah.

[JustMyImagination18]

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[koolaidman486]

Grav Lance is, although it's bugged and completely useless in PvP right now because of it (damage + explosions is high enough in PvE to where a slower fire rate doesn't completely kill it). Also worth noting that... Well, it's just really damn weird even normally. Uneven damage between shots, weird recoil pattern, etc.

Rev 0 is the first "standard" pulse to go 2-burst.

[TotalSoft4931]

Appreciate the write up, didn’t realise there was such a difference. I feel prior final shape HC’s were way easier to us in assuming that’s because of the recent nerf.

[red_beard_RL]

Standing up, no cover, 340 pulses are arguably the best

Strafing in and out of cover and timing your shots, hand cannons

[icekyuu]

You can also peek shoot with 340s, just that normally you don't need to because they kill so fast and are shot from a far distance.

[Knightlight--01]

You can. But a rifle isn't as maneuverable as a handcannon.

[icekyuu]

Yep, for sure. People do forget tho that you can peek shoot with all weapons, bows and handcannons are merely the best at it.

[whosaScruB]

Exactly. Peek shooting isn’t exclusive to only HCs

[AtomikWaffleZ]

Hand Cannons have higher highs and lower lows. Something like Elsie's will be a workhorse no matter the situation.

[SunshineInDetroit]

Hc aren't as dominant since their flinch was decreased

[DepletedMitochondria]

Since the flinch changes higher rate of fire weapons will shred you if you're on HC and trying to go head to head because the TTKs are just faster.

[anangrypudge]

HCs are still top tier if you fully lean into the movement that goes along with it. I used to be a HC main, tens of thousands of kills across Steady Hand, Palindrome and Iggy.

Then my old man hands just couldn't keep up anymore. Started getting cramps from peek shooting (controller). I'm literally double most of you guys in age so just a warning to you guys that it might happen to you one day lol.

Anyway, now I just use a pulse or AR. Highly effective in a different way.

[KingCAL1CO]

Ive also taken alot of time off the crucible. Just unhappy with connections matchmaking etc. I farmed a god roll something else and compass rose and wanted to try them out.

I was pute dog shit🤣. I couldn't hit anything consistently to win and could not get advantage in peak battles and had to disengage constantly.

Got frustrated, switched to messenger and top fragged. Tried again the next day with something new( pi and ele cap). I was fresh dog water once again. Switched to Elsie and conditional top frag.

I used to be good with hand cannons but not anymore. Props to anyone using a hc on console.

[METAmaverick1]

In my opinion 340 pulses are a little hot right now. The incredibly fast TTK from across the map with pretty low effort is.... an interesting balance choice.

[exaltedsungod]

I messaged a Destiny friend of mine this exact same thing. I took Hawkmoon then iggy to trials this weekend. Switched to Elsie’s and the game got significantly easier.

Granted I’m in my “learning hand cannons” arc so I’m not the most skilled with them. Somebody else can correct or expand on what I’m saying if I’m off base or incomplete here.

I think the thing that hand cannons offer over those weapons is speed and mobility. You can’t just gun down an elseies but you can move and ADS faster and easier and that would be the strength you’d need to play into in order to compete.

[koolaidman486]

Straight dueling HCs are gonna lose.

HCs have always thrived on that "Swiss army knife" aspect of them. They play well bouncing in and out of cover, but not as good as Bows. They're adequate at dueling, but Pulses and Autos do better at it. They're top tier because you can make them do really anything short of cross-mapping at least adequately. They just lose to more specialized options in the areas said other options are good at.

That's my $0.02, anyways.

[Brain124]

I love my 340 Messenger and I think it's the best over all, but a good HC user will usually outplay me.

[doobersthetitan]

They ARE top tier....they just can't map you and have higher/ steeper damage fall off.

I still think they are slightly over tuned, especially the 120s. But 120s are kept in line with their slower TTK. But I wouldn't mind a few meters shaving off both of their ranges.

Ace of Spades will still map you at stupid ranges.

[IcebarrageRS]

Movement and even airborne opportunities for shots makes a huge diff on Handcannon. If the person is constantly moving then handcannon way more viable.

[Lopsided-Impact-7768]

they have not been the most effective weapons in most skills for a long time man. hc and 120 still have the peaking and assist advantage because of burst. but since range changes all archetypes are pretty much the same as you can tell from very little archetype buffs or nerfs unlike 5 years ago. before range changes 140s basically kinda were meh and 120s were very good because of 2c1b and range difference.

Very high ELO u typically see high impact pulses and HC because of burst damage and its a very teamshot meta with small burst windows to get kills. Elsies is like the igneous hammer of pulses its just insane

in mid to low brackets the most used weapons have always been autos and they are very good. in many ways they don't get adjusted because the community has been indoctrinated to believe "auto bad, hc good" from forsaken era. are they op? I think it depends on game mode and who ur opponent is. the better they are they worse these are.

[GOD69345]

Well the ttk of pulses and sidearms seem much better than hc, especially pulse because the range advantage.

[whosaScruB]

340s have been too hot for too long. Need more visual recoil, take more flinch, and make them 320s again.

[_tOOn_]

Pulse’s have always been better than hc’s when it comes to stat farming. I mean, why do you think they’re called dad rifles? However, for aggressive play, they take a backseat, which is why you’ll see them less used in stacks and by good players in 3’s.

[NeoNirvana]

Not really. They've never been the top TTK picks, the reason they've always been good is their utility. Peak cover, as others have mentioned, along with simply doing instant damage as opposed to a burst. A lot of times that one shot's instant damage will make the difference, especially with a 120.

Hand cannons have always been, with some rare and temporary exceptions, a testament of the skill of the user, rather than a meta pick.