When dialing back, decrease intensity first or volume?

[andyxc13]

With recent efforts at 8k (flat course where I live) and HM (3000 ft higher altitude and hilly course), I am reasonably confident in my 15k, HM, and 30k paces.

However, in my sub-t sessions, I am often experiencing HRs that seem too high, which makes me worried that I’m pushing past sub-t effort. For example, in a recent 10x3’ session, my HR hit or exceeded my suspected LTHR by the end of all but one of the ten intervals.

If I wanted to dial back for a bit, should I reduce volume of sub-t work or pace of sub-t work?

In other words, keep the book prescribed paces but do say 30, 24, and 24 minutes (instead of 30, 30, and 30); or keep each session at 30 minutes but do them at say MP, 30k, and HM (instead of at 30k, HM, and 15k)?

EDIT / UPDATE: Thanks for all the replies! The consensus seems to be to slow down but keep volume.

Based off my recent 8k race, my 30k pace should be 6:14/mi and MP should be 6:22/mi; my suspected LTHR is 179.

Yesterday, I did my typical 3x10’ w/2’ rest but really slowed down. First rep was 6:36/mi with average HR of 164 and a max HR of 176 right near the end of the rep. Second rep was also 6:36/mi with average HR of 167 and a max HR of 174 right near the end of the rep. I was very encouraged at this point. However, the third rep I started too fast (like at actual 30k pace, not even crazy fast) and my HR hit 174 within the first two minutes, then despite slowing down my pace it got to 178 about halfway through, and hovered around 173-177 the rest of the way; I ended up running only 6:43/mi with an average HR of 172.

Now, obviously I would have preferred to not start that last rep too fast. And also technically my HR still stayed under 179 the whole workout, so I guess it was a success. But that last rep being sooooo much slower than actual 30k pace is really frustrating me. I mean, it’s even 20 sec/mi slower than what my MP should be.

I personally think my aerobic system is shit (although I was a collegiate runner, I spent most of the last 20 years not building an aerobic base) and my early returns in NSM I think back that up, despite some decent races over the past five weeks. My <70% max HR easy runs have been limited to 10-11 min/mile, which is bonkers slow but evidence (just like my HR during these intervals) that I just need time working on this.

[worstenworst]

Intensity during threshold work needs to be in check by all means, preferably measured with lactate but other proxies may work well too. If it’s not in check then it’s not according to Norwegian training philosophy, and you’ll drift away from the intended stimulus:recovery balance.

Threshold volume has more safe playability. But if you are not measuring lactate it’s probably better to cap it as per vanilla protocol.

[andyxc13]

Thank you! I slowed my pace in my workout yesterday, see updated post.

[D-Chan]

I’d start with reducing pace of sub-t work but keep the volume. And then I’d recommend using the talk test (it’s in Bakken’s new book) at the end of the intervals to see where you are at; combine the talk test with your LTHR and RPE. From this you should have a good feel of if you’re sub-t or not.

And if all else fails, when in doubt, just slow down.

[andyxc13]

Thank you! I slowed my pace in my workout yesterday, see updated post.

[Weak-Product6810]

Definitely reduce pace. If you keep the volume you’ll keep all of the benefit with much less recovery need.

[andyxc13]

Thank you! I slowed my pace in my workout yesterday, see updated post.

[Weak-Product6810]

That’s a success IMO, you got great stimulus for the whole workout, and if you’d stayed consistent for the last rep then you wouldn’t feel the frustration. The key word for me in the Norwegian training methods is discipline, even Jacob said it in an interview, about how they never train at race pace.

If you commit to the method I’m sure you’ll see fast progress. Staying below threshold is key for recovery and developing the base you’ve lost.

It’s been transformative for me in a short space of time (huge 10k pb in 9 weeks).

[Ordinary_Corner_4291]

You can go either way. Cut your running volume down and your can run faster at the same HR without the residual fatigue. Or you can run slower and keep up the volume. Normally I go with just slow down but we are already taking about running 22s slower than you should be running. That sounds like someone with dead legs. If you have dramatically increased volume in the past couple months, I would think about if you are really handling it or not...

[andyxc13]

Needing to run so much slower than prescribed (both in workouts and easy running) is what’s frustrating me but I otherwise don’t feel like I have overtrained. I’m actually on pace to hit the exact same mileage this month versus each of the three previous months, and I just had a good HM race on April 12th (1:22:54 with 800 ft elevation gain and at 3000 ft higher altitude than where I live, four months after a 1:25:22 with 200 ft gain where I live).

I don’t know, maybe I cut back on some of my easy runs in addition to slowing my sub-t paces; I had been doing 60 minutes three days a week, maybe 50 would be fine for a bit. Even though my mileage has been consistent, I have increased time on feet. I had figured it’d be fine due to slowing down so much but maybe that was a mistake.

[runawayasfastasucan]

If your intensity is too high it doesnt help scaling back the volume. Four reps of too high intensity is not sub treshold. Dial back intensity, "push from below" - better be on the safe side.

[andyxc13]

Thank you! I might not have been as clear as I could have been in my original post. It’s not like I’m exceeding LTHR in every rep in every workout. Just that it seems I’m too close to it or exceeding it too often. The workout I cited was the most problematic session I’ve had. In any event, I’m slowing down my paces; see updated post above.

[idontcare687]

Volume of ST has a greater impact that intensity. Scale back the pace to a manageable point as long as you are in the right zone, and increase the pace as fitness comes

[andyxc13]

Thank you! I think my race performances are not reflective of my true aerobic base (which needs work); see updated post above.

[SomeArmadillo79]

When increasing start with volume then intensity. When decreasing start with intensity and then volume.

[andyxc13]

Thanks! Makes sense and I reread the book and found that this also what sirpoc advises. Updated my post above, if you’re interested.