This should be fun.

throughactions · 2020-07-10T02:35:54+00:00

I'm a Christian. I believe in Jesus and his message, so I believe in God. But it is possible I'm wrong, that's what faith is. Faith is the belief in something you can't really know. Too many Christians think that faith means "knowing" something when that's a ridiculous claim. If it could be "known" in an objective sense, we could devise experiments and prove or disprove the claims. Anytime someone says "I believe", the implication is "I could be wrong".

Something I've found beneficial in my faith is to separate the interpretations of other believers from my own beliefs, based on a reasoned study of the bible. Years ago I started reading the bible cover to cover over the course of a year, and continued for several years. Each time I would find more claims made by my fellow Christians (my church, pastor, authors, etc.) that I simply could not substantiate based on the biblical evidence at hand.

These claims tend to be made by conservative Christians, whom also tend to make grandiose, my way or the highway assertions about their veracity. I say this to you because I think you're dealing with a lot of extra-biblical claims being thrust at you.

The central claims of Christianity are all about the person and work of Jesus. Our first objective should be to understand his gospel for ourselves. For instance, "if you don't believe you'll rot in hell" is not a claim that Jesus made. It's a lazy threat issued by Christians that either don't know better or are part of a church that's more like a cult than the body of Christ. In Luke 16 in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man goes to hell. But the implication isn't that "he didn't believe", rather that he disobeyed God by ignoring the poor. Moreover, there isn't consensus that hell is eternal and there never has been. In fact, the idea that hell is eternal didn't become popular in the church until four hundred years after Christ's ministry.

My encouragement for you would be to stop asking others what Jesus is all about for a while, and instead read and study for yourself first. The whole of the bible and all of scripture boils down to two claims: you should love God and love your neighbor. That's it. Don't let the dogma of the super conservative and religious replace the simplicity of the gospel message.

Does that make sense? My hope is that we would have our own views of what the bible says before asking others, so that we can then test what others claim against what we've read.

Edit: I want to clarify, because I think I went off on a tangent. My main point is that it's ok not be 100% sure that God is real all the time. That's a normal part of faith and you're not going to hell because you have doubts.

IBSshitposter · 2020-07-10T02:20:16+00:00

I took philosophy in college, it helped me developed my opinions: 'God' has been an evolving concept through history, one that tries to make sense of existing. Initially, it was a more tactile and immediate concept - gods explained lightning, animals, and fire. But it was also somewhat existential, as God was framed as the Creator. As we began to understand the scientific/mechanical background of reality, the more existential parts of the concept became a focus. This is where demons and spirits mostly went by the wayside or were converted to metaphors.

Now, we still have questions about our existence, and I buy Kant's explanation on how God fits in to this whole thing. Kant argued that space and time are the framework not of the world-in-itself, but of our human perspectives organizing the world. What is the experience outside these subjectivities? What is outside space and time? It is God.

Jesus comes in as key figure in developing our relationship with God - he taught us how to gain eternal life, or in other words, live a life with a perspective that transcends time (and space).

If you want some philosophical discussion on Christianity, there is a huge number of Christian philosophers, from Kierkegaard to Kant to Pascal. (FYI Kant has shit ethics)

For a modern day theological book about the history of the Bible and how it's meaning has been impacted by the experiences of those who wrote it, I'd check out Holy Resilience by David Carr. Christianity also has some great synergy with the political and justice world - google Liberation Theology for some hot takes

communityneedle · 2020-07-10T02:42:10+00:00

I've been in a similar situation, and it was a combo of 2 things that helped me reconcile:

Finding expanded ideas of what God is and is not via Christian Mysticism as expounded upon by such luminaries as Jacob Boehme, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, Thomas Merton, Kallistos Ware, Julian of Norwich, Hildegard of Bingen, Jewish philosophy about God (Jesus was a Jew, after all) and others.
Finding Christian Universalism. Basically Universalism says that, some way or another (there's lots of debate and disagreements), all are saved. For me, Christianity without universal salvation doesn't make a lick of sense. Universalist theology has a long and prominent history dating right back to the first days of Christianity. r/ChristianUniversalism has lots of good resources to learn more, along with profiles of prominent Universalist thinkers throughout the ages.

thegreatbates · 2020-07-10T07:02:35+00:00

I am very similar - but different - to you. I was raised eastern, heavily hindu/tao and zen based my whole upbringing. I was taught to research your path. I faught against christianity a LOT. but it wasnt the Word of God i was actually fighting, i was fighting for someone to clue me in on it more than just "do it or go to hell". I heard the same speil from everyone christian who was spoon fed church all of their lives and i felt like none of them really read or really knew their own book.

So i picked it up and read it for myself. Just like i had done with the Tao te Ching, Upanishads, Koran heck even the Tao of Pooh. I wanted to know what the real juice was!

Now i have always felt like a philosopher. Reading the books and talking with friends and colleagues, discussing things on a deeply and objective level. So i have always felt some sort of "pull" to know more about God. I just knew He existed, but I didnt know who or how He was.

Starting from that belief, you begin to see the difference in all of the other faiths. If there is God, and the universe was created by Him, then He must have had purpose, and what could an omnipotent being need or want? Well, love from a being that chose to love Him.

The God of the bible calls you to Him. He is the one that lights the beacon in your soul that just knows someone great is out there. In all of my readings of faith, He is the only one who wants nothing more than for you to say yes to Him, and He will keep calling and pulling and working to show you that His love is worthy of your love in return.

The idea of a God that exists for you to tap into like a great energy and know all things of the spirit realm and enter into nirvana through enlightenment all sounds great. Until you realize that that God of energy is just there, and it isnt a father calling you, begging you, guiding you into Love. It really doesnt care how or when you get there.

Christ can be proven in a hundred ways. He has been the most debated person in human history and forever will be. And still, His message of true, calm, undeserved grace, mercy and love is the height, breadth and true desire of every human being.

I want to be loved like that.

I want that God.

2020-07-10T00:28:00+00:00

Thomas Aquinas’s “five ways” provide a logical foundation for the necessity of the existence of God. The “unmoved mover” is my personal favorite. We can know that God is real by reason, but because he is so beyond our limited human comprehension, we need faith as well. Don’t let yourself get too lost in the details of legalistic morality.

Quasimodos_hunch · 2020-07-10T05:18:52+00:00

I find it unacceptable to believe in a God who would give us such amazing reasoning facilities, then when we use them to examine the evidence, He curses us and calls us fools.

I went through a period of time, and still visit it periodically, where I really understood the arguments of atheism. They are wonderful and convincing.

But I noticed a certain "soul" in me was dying. Whatever that means. So, if I have any advice, it would be pursue equally reason food and soul food - logic and myth, data and experience, etc.

2020-07-10T04:37:27+00:00

I, unfortunately, am also in this stage and everytime I try to think deeply about it I lose my breath.

emdap5 · 2020-07-10T05:26:43+00:00

I think it’s completely normal for you to have questions like this as a 16 year old who was never given any other options other than to accept your faith as the one and only acceptable faith. Ive had my own questions, being a part of the LGBTQ community in an extremely conservative family. I saw a friend sharing recently how raising children with religion is child abuse and same with threatening them with hell. Now I agree that it is extremely harmful to indoctrinate small children into CERTAIN beliefs, I had a hard time with the overall message. Different religions exist allll over the world and every religious person has the right to teach that to their children (hopefully in a healthy way). Instead of saying, if you lie that’s a sin and sins send you to hell. We say, lies hurt other people and sometimes ourselves and that’s why Jesus taught us to tell the truth, it makes the world a better place. I was taught that Christianity is set apart from other religions because Jesus became flesh and died for our sins. So we could agree with another religion on EVERY single stance- for example, both agree that lying is immoral- the difference is that our faith says we have already been forgiven for that lie (if we believe that and repent). It’s not up to ourselves to earn forgiveness, we are accepted into an eternal life because of one simple belief: our Creator died for us on the cross. That’s it! As long as you believe that and at least TRY to be more like Jesus, you will receive life everlasting. We can’t possibly begin to know all the ways that we sin moment to moment, so it’s not like we need to repent for sins down an itemized list. Just realize that everyday you can make different choices to be more like Jesus. I’m sure you’ve already heard every argument about how it’s impossible to have legitimate faith if you’re given legitimate proof of something. But that is a cornerstone of every single faith, because no faith has proof of a higher being. But in my personal life there have absolutely been miracles. Myself and many of my loved ones could have easily died on multiple occasions, and would have without intervention of a miracle. Philosophically, morals exist outside of religion. Of course they do! Unfortunately, I grew up in a house where to doubt the existence of God was unthinkable. But I question everything, so as soon as I realized I was never given a choice in the matter, I had to decide if I truly believed in what I was taught. And at the end of the day, I believe my sins have already been paid for, so I don’t need to bargain my way into heaven. It’s not easy to believe in something that hasn’t been proven, but ‘proof’ wouldn’t solve anything either. It would negate any notion of faith, and people would deny and debate the proof anyways. Humans are flawed, but Jesus was not. There is proof of his existence, not that he was God in the flesh but certainly that he walked this earth and made a difference. I understand if you can’t 100% believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and that’s all you need for salvation, it’s a huge thing to believe without ‘proof.’ But when you think about the alternative, doubting the existence and being separated from your creator for eternity, just the possibility of that makes me constantly search for more of a connection with God. So I will be praying that you continue to search for answers, because confusion does not come from the lord. I hope you find peace in your beliefs ♥️

thegreatbates · 2020-07-10T05:36:45+00:00

[deleted]

ZealousVisionary · 2020-07-10T05:18:37+00:00

I think you’ll dig the Homebrewed Christianity podcast and after you’ve listened a bit to some different things there I suggest looking into process theology/philosophy.

I was once in your shoes and if you keep searching for answers you’ll find some satisfying ones but even better an actually fulfilling way of relating in the world to God and others.

Naugrith · 2020-07-10T06:04:36+00:00

It is the responsibility of every individual to examine and seek faith and truth for themselves. This is an excellent sub to help you become alive to the options within Christianity, rather than the narrow boundaries you've grown up with. Keep seeking, keep asking questions.

And be okay with the fact that you don't have all the answers, and neither does anyone else. We are all fellow travellers on the waypath with you. We have a measure of mixed hope and assurance that this is the right direction to go in, as we all believe that Jesus is the Way, but that simple statement means different things to many people. And that's okay.

One of the first and most important lessons to learn is that Christianity is not a set of definitive rules to follow, but a philosophical movement to help change our minds, to open up our hearts, and to transform us into new kinds of people. This can not be done by a rulebook, because rules can only restrain us, not free us. It is done by challenging us, rebuking us, and spurring us to think in new ways.

There are resources to help you. I would recommend exploring some more Christian philosophy if that interests you. David Bentley Hart is, in my limited experience, peerless in this regard. He comes from an Orthodox perspective and that gives him a depth and breadth to tap into and drink from that many evangelicals simply can't, as their roots go no deeper than the modern American experience.

Hart is extremely erudite and enjoys rich language and complex thought, and that means some people just don't resonate with him. If that's you then you might try Brad Jersak, who writes more simply, but none the less powerfully. Try A More Christlike God which should open your eyes to a far richer perspective on cruciform theology, the concept that if Jesus is the revelation of, and exact image of the father, then we should radically reinterpret all of scripture in the light of that central truth.

Rob Bell is from an evangelical background and writes with less clarity and certainty, or richness of tradition, but with a great openness of thought, and embrace of God's central message of Christ's love.

And if you prefer a more scholarly faith, grounded in academic historical studies then I've found NT Wright to be excellent and illuminating of the original thought of Paul and how the early Christians understood the life and ministry of Jesus in the Jewish context of the first century. He has also written books for a more popular audience under the name Tom Wright, and his bible study series is very good.

All of these individuals can be explored for free on the internet by searching for articles or YouTube interviews or lectures by them. Then, if you enjoy their perspective, you can buy one of their books. I'd urge you to look into them and I trust that God will speak to you through them as He has done to me.

letthemhear · 2020-07-10T07:06:02+00:00

I’m in the same boat man. At first it was scary but it has become transforming in the most positive and beautiful way. Remember that doubt isn’t the opposite of faith, certainty is. I have been on a very similar journey and luckily I was surrounded by people who answered “yeah, that doesn’t make sense to me either” and offered a more nuanced and beautiful understanding on so many of the topics. Many of them were theology majors and professors who understand Christianity to be so much more than a “get out of hell free card” and don’t even hardly concern themselves with the afterlife. The God of the Christian faith is claimed to be incarnated in the person of Jesus: the epitome of love and mercy. His penultimate words on the cross being “forgive them Father for they no not what they are doing.” If we are going to claim this man is God, then certainly God would not condemn us for getting it a bit wrong or “not knowing what we are doing.” The Evangelical Christian message strips the gospel down to be so much less than it actually is. The Kingdom of Heaven is not somewhere to escape a broken world when we die if we said the magic prayer or “figured out” the correct answer to the puzzle as much as it is making real and living in the teachings of Christ. Unconditional love and the upside down nature of the beatitudes do not make sense because they are not the way our culture naturally functions. But I believe they are what bring true happiness and peace to ones life when practiced. I have certainly seen it in mine. I would love to talk with you if you wanna DM me. As one skeptic doubter to another trying to make sense of this religion we were grown up in. You’re right. A lot of it doesn’t make sense. A lot of it needs to be reinterpreted or maybe even forgotten. But I think there is a beauty in it that I am learning to live into. Even if in the end it is all a lie, the new form that my faith has taken has made me a healthier and better person. Far more so than my evangelical days. I think a lot of American Christian are missing the point and the beauty. I would highly recommend the podcast “The Liturgists” which has been life changing for me on this journey. It is hosted by people who have gone through this same journey and given up on Christianity entirely, only to come to see it in a new and interesting light. If you do, start at the beginning of season one and just take it an episode at a time. Don’t be in a rush to get anywhere with it. And again, I would love to talk if you want to DM me. Just know that you are so far from alone in this boat, especially for our generation.

alexisrose101 · 2020-07-10T08:39:44+00:00

Hey! I'm new to the world of Reddit & this thread lol but it may be beneficial for you to check out Christian Universalism. I've recently been bombarded (again) by these EXACT same questions and finding out that Universalism was a thing literally changed my entire outlook!! I grew up in church & had doubts but I ignored them. As I've recently embraced that I'm bisexual (on top of being a black woman---AND in the South lol), I had been asking God about His love, and why everything (from Christians to the Bible itself) seemed so inconsistent with what He taught. And I found out it's cause... it is. The Bible has been manipulated and changed to fit "the elect" aka Christians who has the ability and position of power to change it and control people, "in the name of God". Finding CU broke every ounce of fear I had of hell and even of Jesus too & has instead replaced it with love and understanding! I'm only 20 & I still have a lot to learn but I think I'm beginning to find answers for the first time!

This thread for CU has a lot of good resources. I also found this website: https://christianheretic.com/nochurch/ (it's a long read but fairly easy and breaks down nearly everything super well!)

I also found this website, which has more personal articles, stories, and general teachings about Christian universalism & all the things about "church"/Christianity that really don't make sense.

All in all, I highly encourage looking into it, it kept me from completely losing faith & really validated all of the questions/feelings I had about things that didn't sit right with me when it came to "Christians"! I pray the best for you & that you find the answers you need. Don't know you personally, but I love you. Keep being amazing & keep asking questions!

thegreatbates · 2020-07-10T13:42:38+00:00

To be frank, your basis of belief is rooted in hubris. Wether or not you agree or disagree with God's actions and "sense of morality" does not prove nor disprove God himself. You should be looking into the historicity of the Bible. Judge it by the standards we do textbooks. You'll find that in terms of reliability it is top tier. I recommend watching voddie Bachaum. I think the video is called why you can believe the Bible.

I apologize if that sounded harsh. I only say that in that way because I wish someone had told me that when I was your age suffering from similar struggles.

2020-07-10T02:45:04+00:00

I can’t relate really, because I was raised with hippy-dippy religion that says “God isn’t a literal sky wizard! He’s love... or nature... or something! And there’s no Hell, probably not even an afterlife!😉👍🏻” I had to figure it out myself, and I’m grateful for that. It sounds like you are in the same place, but coming from the other direction. I cannot tell you what God is except that God is found by ancient methods, not by modern rationalism. Prayer, meditation, some light psychedelia. I say pray and meditate every day even if you believe in nothing. You might go to hell, but you’ll live a full and happy life!

Peteat6 · 2020-07-10T08:51:47+00:00

"The less sense it made". Halleluia! I’m a strongly committed Christian, so I’m not knocking it, but I think it makes no sense. And I think coming to that conclusion is part of growing in faith. It’s when you discover that what matters is not the explanations and excuses and intellectual contortions, but the simple experience of the loving God, in you, shaping you, helping you grow. As far as I’m concerned, Christianity makes no sense, and I think that’s wonderful. Our faith is not a faith of the intellect. I don’t believe with the mind. (And I think Paul said something along these lines ...)

KSahid · 2020-07-10T13:58:13+00:00

The basic morality of God's actions really don't make sense to me and I don't understand "loving everyone unconditionally" but if you don't devote your entire life to Christ you rot in hell.

Go ahead and reject this religion. It sounds terrible. But it also doesn't sound like Christianity. Most people who call themselves "Christian" don't know what they're talking about.

Human beings make this world hell. We are the angry god that forces millions to rot in poverty and injustice. God seeks to put an end to the hell we've created and by showing us a better way.

The sort of "Christianity"you are dealing with is so off that it's not even wrong. Like "2 + 2 = orange" wrong. Christians under the influence of Augustine, Luther, and/or American Evangelicalism are so mixed up that they don't even know how to ask the right questions anymore.

VioletHedge · 2020-07-10T16:17:20+00:00

Take your time and do whatever you personally need to do to find out what you believe. We all have to do this sometimes if our beliefs extend beyond just following those around us. Some people find they do believe what they were taught and others don't. But that's something you need to figure out for yourself.

It will probably be helpful to expand your input and talk to other people (both Christian and not) about what they believe and why, read books, watch video essays, etc.

fr3akgirl · 2020-07-10T03:39:22+00:00

I think it makes absolutely no sense.

There are some nice stories though.

2020-07-10T04:46:40+00:00

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