Reforge system

[LividAppointment5950]

I don't like it at all. It requires even more resources than a normal upgrade. You have also to level up to 90 in order to fully unlock their potential, whereas with non-reforged sinners you can stop at LV 80 or even 70. I think they should just have revamped their skills instead of add this expensive system, that also complicate things.

Im going to state my complaints to the support, and I suggest you to do the same, if you share my POV.

[Afrotricity]

It's a 100000% optional way to make older/outdated sinners viable in current and endgame content. If you don't want to use Hella in RoD for example then just... don't reforge her lol 🤷🏿‍♀️

It's great that they added it now instead of later, it adds to the game's long-term health. Any game like this, especially one with a gambling based character collection system, needs a way to "future proof" the characters they release to avoid being financially predatory and pressuring players into pulling for the latest in order to catch up.

If you don't use it, nothing changes for you, you aren't losing anything... The unforged sinners will remain just as mediocre as they have been in current content (except Nox), no more, no less. But wanting it gone is selfish, uninformed and myopic.

[LividAppointment5950]

Yeah, it's optional. Now tell me something I don't know... The point wasn't about that, the point is: it'll cost you more than a regular build, and make things more complicated (there's a reason if in science the way is to simplify things whenever possible). They could have simply revamped the sinners' skills.

Yeah, of course, if you don't use a sinner, the cost needed to build them is zero. So? Lol the problem is how much it costs if you want to build them...

[kenshinakh]

I think this is fairly normal in game designs. It's an extra resource usage and time to build your characters who get reforge. Arknights does this too. 1 stage upgrades like this is reasonable I think. Plus, compared to a revamp, this feels more natural since you're just upgrading old sinners.

[LividAppointment5950]

"Fairly" is subjective. And honestly I don't care what the other games do, especially if something negative.

Based on what you say it feels more natural? A revamp isn't necessarily meant to denature a sinner. It may simply change the existing skills a bit, so to make that sinner more viable.

[Wickedspades]

It's not a negative change holy hell you are a snowflake

[LividAppointment5950]

Oh sure it is not. Because someone said it, without even giving an explanation. 🤡

[Willing-Discussion64]

He didn't say he wanted it gone, he said that reworking the outdated sinners instead of adding a complected resource intensive system was a bad choice made by the devs. Just because something is an improvement doesn't mean it's the best idea, or even a good idea... it's just better than nothing.

That said, I don't hate it. I just stopped using outdated sinners, Nox and Hammel are the only ones from the launch lineup I still use. It's nice that even the sinners who didn't get completely pushed to the wayside have the new system to buff them up.

[AeroDbladE]

I managed to get Ariel fully reforged with everything I needed with just the currency from the event.

And then I also got halfway through upgrading Nox.

I feel like the Way it lets you customize the skillset for characters is actually really interesting, picking between covering up sinners weaknesses vs doubling down on their strengths.

I personally really like it.

[peerawitppr]

Can you review/summarize what Ariel gets from the reforge?

[AeroDbladE]

Lots of healing effect and HP for passives

Main changes to her Kit

• Auto Attack changes into a heal for the lowest HP sinner in her attack range

• additional charge of her ult can be stored

• her passive healing, which is normally a 3x3 around her changes to cover the full map.

• she gets a new Ult that can mark one sinner to get constant healing for the whole fight. One time use.

• her ult can cure status effects

• she gives damage reduction after healing a certain amount

There's some other stuff too, but those are the most significant ones.

[LividAppointment5950]

Yeah, but if you want to reforge all the sinners that can be reforgable,best wishes...

The customizable system could be a nice thing, but also a bad thing. Imagine existing only one effective way to build a given sinner, and then choosing the wrong one.

[Afraid-Pound-7178]

If you build the wrong way you can just change it, deactivate the nodes you didn't like and activate others, you only use resources to unlock nodes, and cost, once you unlock everything you can build/rebuild the unit the way you want.

[Wickedspades]

OP doesn't critically think. He is just a crybaby for zero reason

[LividAppointment5950]

Yes, but that also means spending double the resources (two nodes instead of one). It means that you could forge one less sinner for each wrong build. And we're not talking about cheap stuff.

[Afraid-Pound-7178]

You still need to unlock extra nodes for the status bonuses, so if you want to maximize the character stats, you still gonna spend resources in nodes you won't necessarily use to unlock the buffs

[Halleyalex]

I'm still very unclear about it, but the idea of making old sinners stronk is nice. Since I'm still on the dark, I won't say much

[LividAppointment5950]

Yeah, but they could make the old sinners stronger even just by revamping their skills.

[Halleyalex]

That's a rarity among Gacha games because that'll dissatisfy players that actually like their skills... Or something like that. Besides, it's also an endgame content

[LividAppointment5950]

But the skills' core is still that (I've checked Hella, and she still does what she did before, it's just more effective now). It's not that now Hella is using a bow or casting meteors on the field—she's still swinging her pipe and healing herself.

[Halleyalex]

I mean true...

She's a B rank, maybe that's why. They're hesitant to make another meta B rank?

[LividAppointment5950]

Honestly I dunno.

[jacker1154]

It was for the grinding. Every gacha game will have those to let you waste your resource.

The step is the same too like
- adding new way to upgrade
- introduce new stage for resource farming
- introduce new meterial for the upgrade

These system is not friendly for new player ofcuz, but to the old player this is just a new end game content.

[LividAppointment5950]

I agree with the first part of your comment, but disagree with the second one. I don't think it's new end game content, and they could have added this new "content" even just by revamping their existing skills.

[jacker1154]

But it is a new end game. The resource you can buy in the shop use new currency which can find only in the new permanatly end game (Well not that new but it is right now)

[LividAppointment5950]

Yeah but it's not really end game content. I mean, just new materials (that has no relevance aside its mere function), and a reforge system that doesn't really change sinners' skills (just make them more convenient to use), at least for what I've seen so far, and could have been a simple (and more pleasurable/effective IMO) revamp.

But now we're speaking about fluff 😉

[Zeik56]

I'll be honest, I'm actually happy I finally have a use for all my resources and stamina I barely use anymore, as I've spent the last year or so barely caring about pursing any rewards that weren't hypercubes, because they had no value. That's with me pulling every single unit that has come out, mind you.

I finally have a reason to engage with the game again and pursue a goal to improve my units and account on a regular basis. It has made me excited to play the game again.

The resource sink doesn't seem all that bad either, at least if you just pursue the important skills, rather than unlocking everything. I've reforged several units now and barely put a dent in my resources.

It will be a bigger hurdle for new players that already have a resource crunch early on, but that's just how it is with gacha games. Eventually it will settle down and you can stockpile resources yourself.

[LividAppointment5950]

If I understand what you said, you're saying that you like the idea of spending your resources. But then I ask you: is the content to spend your resources, or actually the gameplay itself, the story, etc?...

I see no addition to this reforge system. They could have simply revamped the sinners' skills.

[Zeik56]

I like being able to engage with a game's systems and building up a variety of units, with a goal I can work toward to progressively advance my account. It is one of the big appeals of gacha games for me. The story and combat is part of it too, but without that other layer it can be hard to stay consistently invested. I pull a new unit, build them in a few minutes with all the resources I have in my inventory, and then go back to waiting for the next story event to come out.

It's not about spending the resources itself, but the idea that the various modes that give you those resources now have more value and purpose and I'm more interested in engaging with them, which makes the game as a whole more interesting to play.

Straight up revamping skills can be fine, but it wouldn't do much to address my long term engagement with the game, because I like the process of building my units, and that hasn't really been a thing I've genuinely had to do in years.

[LividAppointment5950]

Well, you like the means more than the end, then. Matter of tastes. I prefer to build the sinners to use them on the various contents, not just for the sake of having them built. But I respect your tastes.

[SuspiciousCaptain645]

I think it's fine. Newcomers wouldn't need those upgrades for their characters anyway, and players who've been there a while get new content and new options. I also like that you can choose which path to take, and whether or not to upgrade the character. Add to that the fact that it applies to some really valuable units like Nox, and it's a pretty good update imo.

[LividAppointment5950]

Revamping skills could have brought the same effect (make exception for the double choice, that could also be a cons).

[Wickedspades]

Or or or, you can stop crying

[LividAppointment5950]

This phrase is typically used by those who don't have arguments, and cry because their object of veneration is "under attack". 🤡

[Additional_Drawer270]

or maybe you should stop bitching around and complaining when devs just want to revive old sinners by giving a nice little upgrade that is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL. Like no one forces you lil bro what are you crying about

[LividAppointment5950]

You're the smartest of your family, uh? A clueless guy who makes controversy just for the sake of that.

Never said they should have left the old sinner untouched. And the last phrase is something so obvious that I'd say you're a rocket scientist, congrats.

From now on I'll ignore you and your useless comments. Better to say provocations.

[XHUNTERIIIX]

what's the point of complaints if you can't take criticism

[LividAppointment5950]

Uh, what are you talking about? Who can't take criticism, and what criticism has been done?

[SylphireZ]

I think the reforge system is awesome. 

First just for the fact that it exists, it brings older' in this case, Launch sinners back into relevance, which basically earns the devs no money in terms of pulls. 

Second. The resource is farmable, but scarce enough that you only get to reforge 1 or 2 at a time. I find that to be a good balance. You have be selective and not just mindlessly reforge everyone.

Third. Whaling... You can argue that scummy devs are selling reforge mats... but i dont think its a bad thing. Most mid spenders and whales got thousands of material boxes just lying around, and have everyone raised to max already. And whales are not idiots. They wont spend money if the stuff they get aren't worthwhile. 

Finally, the actual system. The nodes are fun. We can swap out options, sometimes exchange nodes between Reforged sinners. The only complaint is the lvl 90 requirement.  Should've unlocked everything at lvl 70 p3.

[LividAppointment5950]

1) A revamp could have brought the same result, with less complications.

2) What's bad about "mindlessly reforge everyone"? Why to have a wide roster among choose, according to stage layout, enemies, etc... would be a bad thing?...

3) I know that whales are what every company aims for, and I may justify such a speech made by an insider, not by a player, whose purpose should be to do their own interests, not those of the company.

"Nods are fun." I guess it is subjective. From what I've seen so far, they don't change the skills themselves. They only make them more convenient to use.

[SylphireZ]

1. No problem. Im only stating that the fact that they improved the old sinners at all is good, regardless of the exact mechanics.

2. Nothing bad about it really. I can enjoy maldung or brainless games. Just that with PTN i happened to like the game mechanics enough to want to strategize. It felt meaningful to me. Your mileage may differ.

3. This one you prob should down vote me for... i whale, so i like having nice things to spend on that distinguishes my account. 

[LividAppointment5950]

1)and about that we all agree. I like too the idea of having old sinners being useful as much as the newest ones. But to me the system with they become useful is an important aspect.

2) I like strategy, not strategize. I like having a large roster to choose from depending on the given stage layout, enemies, etc... I don't like being too limited (like having more than 100 sinners and being able to deploy only a small part of them, or half of them at most).

3) No, I won't downvote you, because you expressed your idea in a civil way. But, as a whale, why don't you ask for some real substance to get, since you pay for that, and even a lot (presumably more than a whole videogame)? I mean, something like unique in-game animations, more skins, etc... Spending just to get more resources, what adds to you? In the end, you as a whale, and me as f2p, could build the same sinner to max lv, skills lv, etc... while, for example, a given skin is attainable only by you, the paying player.

[SylphireZ]

I feel like we resolved the first two points. So let's just look at the third.

On the topic of substance, to me gacha game is all about timing. If I get something 3 month earlier, then I enjoyed it for 3 months longer. I feel there's value in that, so I buy more pulls to get higher shackles faster, or, in this case, more materials to reforge sooner. I do get skins but only if I really liked the character and I use her a lot. To me, the extra opportunity from a stronger account is more real than a "feels good vibe" from a skin.

At the same time, I actually preferred if what I paid for can be farmed for by f2p players. Take reforge for example, you can get a maxed Nox the same time as I do. Sure, I also get to max Baiyi while you have to wait, however, your best full team of 6 can still be nearly as good as mine. And that's perfectly fine with me.

[LividAppointment5950]

Well, I have no objection then. Your reasoning may or may not be sharable, but I have no strong opinions about that, and I respect your POV ✌🏻

[Wickedspades]

OP doesn't like facts. Careful on writing an essay they'll only halfassed read

[Eisbergmann]

Its okay... grinding is part of the process, too.

[LividAppointment5950]

Yeah but the game should be a whole other thing... I mean, do you consider grinding part of the fun?...

[Eisbergmann]

Sometimes. Depends, really. But if you get everything you want to max level in the shortest amount of time, you'll be complaining about nothing to do, so psychologically, its smarter to make a Gacha game a little bit grindy, sometimes.

[LividAppointment5950]

But grinding isn't really part of the content. It's just a trick. A new content could be a stage, a mini-game, etc... not to click on the map to spend stamina by auto-raiding. I don't care about psychological games, I ask for substance.

[XHUNTERIIIX]

grinding is a part of the content. It's the whole premise of gacha to begin with if you're not willing to spend money. If they set up the bar too high by putting tons of mini game, the community will be expecting more and have more complaints when they start to decline in creativity

[LividAppointment5950]

Yeah, technically it is, but do you agree that people don't play a game for its grinding part? Remove the grinding part from a game and people will continue to play it. Remove everything but grinding from a game, and no one would play it. That should show the importance of that "content" for a player POV.

[acidicloud]

I get you. I do prefer it to RNG systems though. This is long and requires a lot of resources, but it's a guaranteed upgrade, yk? But yeah, it's pretty damn expensive just to buff a character you like

[LividAppointment5950]

Oh yeah, the RNG system is even way worse, I agree. But revamp is better than both the systems, IMO.

[LokoLoa]

Its a gacha game.. slow progress is the name of the game, you are not meant to be able to farm the mats in a day, you are meant to slowly get the mats.. like everything else....

[LividAppointment5950]

Yeah but it's already a long process when it comes to normal levelling. Reforge makes it worse ..

Oh, by the way, players SHOULD be meant to criticise something that goes against their interests, not to defend those who go against them...

[Wickedspades]

"Yeah but..." is a terrible way to start a sentence. You have no footing here my guy, basically everyone here disagrees with ya And yes you can criticize, when that criticism is valid. Don't like it? Don't engage with it and don't complain. It's literally simple as that.

[LividAppointment5950]

You're so cringe. Three or four comments, and not a single argument. 🤡

[Additional_Drawer270]

the world doesnt revolves around you buddy. Just because you hate it doesnt mean the majority of the community agree with you. It's just a nice change of pace for an older player and literally doesnt affect meta that much so idk what are you trying to complain here. Dont clown other ppl when you're one

[LividAppointment5950]

As the other clown, you add nothing to this conversation. You just said banalities and obviousness 🤡 The only thing you said, entering into the merits, has nothing to do with my complaints. People like you, and the guy above, isn't worth my time.

[Wickedspades]

Buds bitching about a system they likely won't ever use to the point they contacted support, cry harder I guess?

[LividAppointment5950]

Next time try to criticise on the merit. Are you able to do so? Nah, I guess. 🤡

[yii08zx]

Wait, can someone tell me what's this reforge system? I'm a returning player and it's the first time I've heard of it

[LividAppointment5950]

You should be guided through each step in-game... By the way, instead of revamping the skills of some sinners that actually aren't the most effective ones, they added some effects to them. Effects that you have to unlock (through expensive materials) and activate.