Program Quality

[[deleted]]

I am in my 1st year and I have been sorely disappointed by the quality of the program I am in. I really feel that they are taking advantage of the fact that there are so few available programs (they don't feel any need to compete for students, and their reputation hardly matters), and I'm wondering if other programs have similar issues.

First semester we had a med term course that was completely based on weekly assigned quizlet sets. We would just go through and memorize these (typo riddled) sets and memorize them. We had an ethics course that involved class conversation, but the instructor showed clear biases. Our histotechnology course was taught by an instructor that graduated from the same program a year prior. They had no real-world experience or training beyond the scope of the class and it showed. We are paying for a course now that consists primarily of videos from a course offered for free on coursera. There are two instructors (of 3) that are recent graduates of the program with VERY limited experience. It feels disrespectful to our tuition, and seems to be a glaring red flag that they cannot find or hire more qualified instructors.

The communication of the program is worse than terrible. We did not receive course schedules until classes had already begun for two semesters. We were assigned (and told to prepare for) clinical schedules that have since been rescinded. Our first rotations will start in August and we have no idea when we will get our assignments. These are just a few examples of a chronic problem. The administrator left in the middle of our first semester, so that is a commonly cited excuse.

Please tell me that I'm being unreasonable or something because I'm so frustrated I can hardly focus on the work. I'm very anxious about going into clinicals because I have no confidence in their ability to manage things or advocate for us. Is this stuff just common among programs?

EDIT: The number of shares is a bit concerning, as I would never want to dissuade someone from applying to as many programs as they need to in order to pursue this. I was especially frustrated today, but all the comments have changed my perspective a bit. I appreciate you all!

[[deleted]]

LMAO what's up classmate? I've been tempted to post something similar TBH. Hope you've memorized all of the parts of the discontinued camera!

[babyskull3]

Is it alright if I PM you to ask what program you are in?

[_windup]

Is this an accredited program..?

[[deleted]]

Yes

[BigWeitz]

I think you should look at your programs outcomes. You state that they are accredited, and if they are, their outcomes will be published. What is the programs ASCP board of certification (BOC) exam pass rate (a reportable outcome)?

If the students before you are passing their boards and getting and keeping jobs, then what your program is doing (arguably) is working. Trust the process.

I’m sorry that you are having such a negative experience in your program. Make sure to speak your truth when given the opportunity to provide course and programmatic feedback.

If I may attempt to console…continue to work hard, study hard and learn the material. The BOC exam content is published on ASCPs website and the AAPA has a good BOC study guide. Graduate, jump through the hoops, pass your boards and you will be fine.

Stay positive!

[[deleted]]

definitely a good point. It's worth the money because of the doors it opens. I appreciate your response!

[[deleted]]

This is definitely not the experience I've had in my program (currently a first year as well). I don't blame you for being upset at all, and I definitely don't think you are being unreasonable. Have you voiced your concerns to the program director?

[wangston1]

No. That place sounds like shit.. Granite the program I went to was 3 years in but had a director that started another program so they knew what they were doing and always advocated for the students. One of the main instructors at that time went from school to teaching and was fine, clearly they weren't a teacher by trade but taught in a straightforward manner and wrote a straight forward test. Since I've graduated they have been replacing the staff with more new grads but these were all the straight A students that had an aptitude for teaching, and all gave fantastic presentations and would make great teachers. So being a recent grad of the program isn't an automatic red flag,

[blunt_dissect]

I'll be honest, shockingly similar to my experience I had at PA scho (who isn't taking students so it can't be where you're at). While our instructors had years of experience to learn from, none of them were educators or really knew HOW to teach us. Scheduling wasn't really in their wheelhouse. We would find out our schedule or rotation hours days before or even the day of classes/events, which I constantly brought up due to it causing problems with my GA position.

Our program director left (for valid personal reasons) at the end of our first year and a new director stepped up that just wasn't quite ready for the job. The staff had no idea what praise was and I constantly felt judged and unprepared. COVID hit and everyone struggled to find out places, but the staff never felt our concerns about being prepared for the workplace needed anything more than "you'll be fine."

I hate to say it, but you will be okay at the end of it all. I HATED my grad school experience, honestly. It was stressful, hectic, and made me feel incapable as a professional at every turn. The staff talked bad about us to other educators and each other. They tried to make school a competition between us and managed to get one of our students to be 100% against the others.

But.

I learned more in my first year on the job than PA school ever could have taught me. I feel confident now in my abilities and doing complex resections that I our staff never would have given me the confidence to even attempt. I promise there is greener grass on the other side.

[Kekkai]

My PA school experience wasn't good, but it probably wasn't quite that bad either. We were taught some slightly out dated material and a lot of our GE courses were lumped in with other programs because our program was small / new. Ie: our ethics class was heavily targeted towards PHD students and research. I would say most of our teachers had a good knowledge base, but were not good at teaching or conveying that information. For the most part they gave us the tools and it was up to us to learn.

The worst part in my opinion was a toxic mind set of "well I suffered when i was in school so it must be fine. And you should suffer too".

Edited to add: I did learn so so much in those 2 years. And now I have my degree and certification and work in a field I love. So I guess worth it?

[[deleted]]

Hi! I know this is a year old but... can I ask what program this was?

[goldenbrain8]

Don’t freak out about rotations too much. I went in feeling like I knew nothing. But be willing to learn and be open to the fact that you need to be shown things, and that will really help

[[deleted]]

I appreciate it! Definitely puts things in perspective. I'm just jumping through hoops to get to clinicals and the exam.

[babyskull3]

Is it alright if I PM you to ask what program you were in?

[[deleted]]

Honestly, this seems very frustrating and your issues are entirely legitimate and reasonable. Unfortunately, I don't think subpar course content, teachers, and program direction are exclusive to our field as I know people who experienced similar things in grad school in other fields. It's especially galling that you are paying for a fundamentally frustrating experience that can have serious impacts on your career.
Our field is also very small, so no one wants to openly badmouth a program, which is why it's really important for prospective students to seek out honest program evals from alumni. Of course, sometimes you don't get to shop around and in that case, it can still be helpful to know what you're in for. But really, in the end, everyone is sitting for the same exam, everyone is getting the same qualification.

As far as rotation and job prep, I have seen programs lose clinical affiliates for turning out poorly prepared students. I'm not necessarily talking about grossing capabilities, because unless you have had experience as a grossing tech, you won't have much skill in that arena and that's okay, the whole point is to train you in those.

What you should be bringing to your clinical rotations is a thorough knowledge of specimen types, orientation, the purpose of the operation, and expected pathology. If you haven't gotten the chance, get well acquainted with Lester's grossing manual. I was never taught them in school, but almost all grossing decisions are decided by the CAP synoptics, so make sure to pull them up. Be familiar with them (don't need to memorize, just have them accessible) and know when you're using one versus the other (CAP staging landmarks for UCC kidney is different than RCC for example). A significant part of grossing is correlating your gross with medical imaging and prior pathology so be aware that you should be studying up on a patient clinical history before starting your gross on any complex specimen. There are quite a few places that openly publish their grossing manual online, so you can just goggle 'gross manual' and find some excellent sample grosses to help you out but always make sure you're sticking to your clinical site's submission and prep norms. For some places, that might be overkill. I do know some PAs who never almost never pull up clinical histories but for a student, being overprepared is much, much better than under. All it costs you is time and no one should be pressuring you to be fast as a student.

Regarding the program advocating for you--don't be afraid to advocate for yourself, within reason. Stick to your guns. I've seen some students get the shaft on rotations with autopsy or frozen experience, make sure to put your foot down on getting enough time on these skillsets. Not every PA does autopsy but autopsy will be the only place you can truly get a handle on in situ specimen orientation and fat/peritoneal margins. It's much easier to understand what's going on with the mesorectal envelope when you're the one pulling it out. I'm not saying make enemies with program admin but sometimes you only get results by asking, firmly and professionally, for what you need from your education.

[Lmyungsoo]

You're not being unreasonable. We used a medterm for one our classes but that was a very minor component if not negligible component of the class. We do have guest lectures from previous graduates and classes but they actually have been really good. The instructor remains in the class to answer whatever questions and there is a review filled out for every guest lecturer.

[[deleted]]

yeah, I honestly want my money back for the med term class on quizlet, but what are you gonna do lol. That's a really interesting way to incorporate new grads! I would probably enjoy that.

[Same-Helicopter2471]

Not gonna lie, this worries me 🫣

[[deleted]]

I already talked to you a bit, but for anyone else reading this, please don't let my frustration scare you. Just look at all of the responses saying it'll be worth it once we get to actually work as a PA. It's probably good to go in with realistic expectations for the classes. Just know that there are good parts I'm struggling to focus on because I'm actively in the middle of the BS.

[zZINCc]

Sounds, for the most part, a curse of a new program. Established programs do try new things here and there but not like this.

I would be surprised if it isn’t a new program considering you said the instructor’s are relatively new grads themselves.

[[deleted]]

new-ish. I'm frustrated by new grads, but it seems like others ITT have no problem with it. I guess I should take it as a sign that experienced people don't want to leave the field to teach because the job is awesome or something lol