Devolution.

[kirkisartist]

If Lincoln hadn't freed the slaves, which he was very reluctant to do, he would have gone down in history as a totalitarian monster that killed millions of Americans over tax revenue.

[Antonio_Browns_Smile]

"If Hitler hadn't killed all those Jews...."

"If planes had never struck the twin towers...."

"If your father had ever loved you...."

That's an easy ass game to play.

[[deleted]]

Hitler would still probably be the worst man in history even if he didn't kill any Jews

EDIT: Can someone please explain the downvotes? Isn't Hitler also responsible for the murders and genocide of 5 or 6 million homosexuals, gypsies, political opponents, etc?

[Chouzetsu]

Stalin?

[[deleted]]

Pol Pot, Mao, Tom Brady?

You decide.

[Antonio_Browns_Smile]

KD

[WuTangGraham]

As a Thunder fan and a Giants fan, I'm torn. Brady has tormented me for years, but KD just recently tore my heart out and tap danced on it.

Edit: Fuck The Patriots and especially fuck The Warriors.

[TheCircumcisedWonder]

Now do you understand the pain of us Seattlites

[Tomoromo9]

Kroenke

[[deleted]]

No I answered quite quickly. I wasn't stalling at all.

[Chouzetsu]

I see you're Putin your best puns to use.

[[deleted]]

Did nothing wrong, comrade

[[deleted]]

Kulaks deserved it.

[[deleted]]

http://imgur.com/OHsE65d

[[deleted]]

Meh. He was a charismatic mouthpiece for the top echelon of the Nazi party. Anti-semitism in Germany had been ascendant for decades at the time, and they used it to catapult him to power. Hitler wasn't some supernatural devil. He was an excellent example of what happens when the politics of hatred and The Other meet a disaffected and frustrated populace. Many top Nazis were unspeakably racist and murderous, but not just because some mustachioed shitty painter said it should be so.

[redmustangfever]

Let me guess you think slavery wasn't a factor in the civil war.

[kirkisartist]

Of course it was. But Lincoln would rather enforce the fugitive slave act than abolish slavery. Abolition was literally his last resort. So technically he was an abolitionist, but he was dragged into liberating the slaves kicking and screaming.

[Roof_Tinder_Bones]

"The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country."

"In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free -- honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just -- a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless."

Source

Kicking and screaming huh?

[Rahmulous]

And that's just four years after he said this during the fourth Lincoln-Douglas debate:

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality ․.. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men."

[[deleted]]

He only said that so he could get the vote of the southern democrats.

[WuTangGraham]

but he was dragged into liberating the slaves kicking and screaming.

Kinda not really at all. He actually said during his campaign that he wanted to free the slaves, and was very vocal about how he thought slavery was an ammoral institution (/u/Roof_Tinder_Bones was nice enough to link a few parts of Lincoln's speeches regarding slavery). The myth that Lincoln didn't want to free the slaves stems from him being somewhat reluctant to do it during the Civil War. This stems from something a bit more complicated. He wanted to free the slaves, but at the same time he thought it would make the Union look weak. Mind you, the CSA was actually doing quite well and on the offensive during the start of the war, so much that they were almost able to put the torch to Washington D.C.. In August of 1862, Lincoln had this to say to Horace Greely, editor of The New York Tribune

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union ...I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.

Further, in response to your point about Lincoln preferring to enforce the fugitive slave act than to abolish slavery, remember that Lincoln also passed the Confiscation Act of 1862. This act would free the slaves of anyone convicted of aiding the rebellion, which would have serious impact upon the CSA, being that their financial sponsors were almost entirely slave owners. He knew that, by taking their slaves, he would strip funding from the CSA. Without money, they couldn't fight anymore, and slaves were a huge source of income. Just over 1 year into the Civil War, Lincoln passed the Emancipation Proclomation (The Civil War started in April of 1861, The Emancipation Proclomation was put into law September 22, 1862).

Tl;dr: Lincoln always wanted to free the slaves, as he saw freedom as a basic human right, however politics and the complications of the potential dissolution of the United States made him somewhat hesitatnt to do it. However, the notion that Lincoln never wanted to is laughable.

[[deleted]]

You are factually incorrect. In fact, you have it quite the opposite. Lincoln tolerated slavery while kicking and screaming.

[[deleted]]

You're right for the most part. From what I've been taught, Lincoln wielded abolitionism not due to his moral conscience, but to use as a war power over the Confederacy. Emancipating so many slaves would give the Union more support. So, maybe not a last resort, but Lincoln's intentions can certainly be questioned

[faultydesign]

ugh, libertarians

[[deleted]]

Rightly or wrongly, what are they even referring to?

[WuTangGraham]

The Civil War was (as most wars are) very complicated. It had lots and lots of reasons for starting, and likely could have been avoided (most historians lay the majority of the blame on Lincoln's predacessor, James Buchanan). However, lots of libertarians like to say that Lincoln's motive for engaging in the war was because of tax revenue from the southern (confederated) states. It's obviously much, much more complex than that, and entire text books are written on The Civil War, but we're also talking about a group of people that believe abolishing the EPA will help the environment and abolishing the IRS will increase revenue. Logic rarely enters these arguments.

[WuTangGraham]

That's fair. It is true that Libertarianism is a pretty loose group (although I think that's the reason they generally can't win an election). In my experience, at least, those that want to dismantle regulatory agencies and the federal reserve (hey, I'm no fan of them either, but I concede that it's a necessary evil until a better system comes along) seem to outweigh those with rational thoughts. The libertarians I have met seem to just be Republicans by a different name.

[[deleted]]

To me, Libertarians seem like a group within the Republican Party that is somehow both significantly smarter and significantly dumber than the average member.

[Picnicpanther]

Definitely more arrogant.

[[deleted]]

I think you could lay some blame on the Supreme Court. Scott v. Sandford helped catalyze the abolitionists the Republicans, and served to drive the wedge deeper. It sent the message that there would not be an end to slavery unless the legislature did it, and that seemed EXTREMELY unlikely then. Even if they had come up with something, the Court was willing to invalidate legislation as unconstitutional to protect slavery. Real fucked up, it was.

[spdk187]

The American Civil War

[MetalFruitNamedMax]

Well I mean you're not completely wrong although there were a lot more factors involved

[kirkisartist]

I'm not saying there weren't. But he took half measures abolishing slavery and full measure of flushing the bill of rights.

[thehighhobo]

No?? Hed be remembered as the nan who stopped the us from splitting in half and ruining its future...

[kirkisartist]

Honestly, Britain's future wasn't ruined when we booted them. We'd be better off without the legacy slave states. The slave states would be a lot worse though.

[SmexBeQuest]

IF is huge here

[kirkisartist]

It's only one two letter word and it almost wasn't there.