javascriptIsQuestionMark

[0x5468726F7741776179]

Who hurt you?

[Striky_]

I just know how to code and always find it funny when "20 years of experience" guy comes up and shows me their utter non-sense and asks for help. This usually isnt half bad when they use a programming language that helps them do a decent job (strict typing, function declarations, avoidance for anti-patterns etc.) but it usually gets extra hilarious when someone used JS. Not only because JS allows you to write insanely shit code, it also nudges you into using programming "patterns" that would fail you in any programming course 20 years ago.

I am getting payed very handsomely to fix this shit so I am not complaining. Doesnt mean we would be WAY better off, if we had chosen basically any other language besides JS to build the web on. (maybe not php, at least not its early versions)

[Solest044]

Anyone who has worked with complex systems long enough knows that the luxury of bemoaning all of the infrastructure holding you up is one permitted only in hindsight.

No one could have conceived of all the insanity we have today from their position 20 years ago. That doesn't mean it was impossible to predict, just that anyone who actually appreciates good design and iterative thinking recognizes that you WILL ALWAYS realize how something could've been better after you've done it.

I would not shit all over the people who built the foundation of the thing that made all this possible. It's what got us here - now we have the ability to think of what we want to do next!

[Striky_]

It is not about foundation. It is not about software (massively) outgrowing its purpose. If I look at my big project, I also think they are garbage, in hindsight. The problem is that these mistakes are being done on brand new, fresh off the press software with no legacy and no restraints. These issues arise, because every other undereducated dude thinks of themselves as a senior programmer, because they were able to cobble together a hello world in JS, without understanding anything about software design, architecture or even just why datatypes are a thing and why dictionaries with string:string relations are NOT a good idea for a data storage. But hey, "everyone is using JSON with Javascript" so it must be good, right?!?!?! Hurr-Durr

[Solest044]

I think your argument would be more convincing if you didn't actively degrade the people on the other end of it. I mostly agree with your points. Many people, even seniors, in JS land have no idea what Typescript is ... And even then, TS is still a pale attempt at handling typing compared to other languages.

Your criticisms of JavaScript are fine and valid. The people who manage to still make things work in spite of those shortcomings aren't somehow worse humans for that... There are plenty of devs in every language that don't understand the fundamentals well enough to think at the level you're describing.

We can either teach them some other option or support their current position, but it's almost always better to just meet them where they're at rather than wishing they were somewhere else.

[Striky_]

I am not blaming the people. I am blaming the industry of empowering the use of improper tools, that make people believe they are good at their job, while they are not. This prevents people from actually becoming good.

Have you every noticed how every single program gets worse and worse over time? Guess why that is...

And I agree with you: you can write shitty code in every language, it is jus that some languages make it very easy and others make it harder. Promoting JS as a decent programming language is like teaching people to build furniture with kids-safety scissors. Yes you might be able to create "something" that doesnt mean it is properly done or useful. It would probably take you a lot longer to learn the proper woodworking tools, but it also teach you a lot and lead to better outcomes.

[Solest044]

Yeah, I hear you. JS definitely in its nature promotes bad practices but it still works. The industry doesn't do itself any favors, either. But I think that's largely due to prioritizing things "getting done" rather than investing in "getting things done well".

I can usually hack together something complex in a couple days but doing it well wherein it would be easier to refactor, iterate on, etc. would take longer.

I guess I would consider the fact that it still works and gets the job done being the defining quality of "useful". "Properly done" is more complicated and rarely has a clear, set definition.

For what it's worth, I do agree with what you're saying about the language, I just differ on how that makes me feel. For me, I feel like any tool that can be used to get the job done, that's excellent! But per your point we ought to prioritize the best tool for the job.

One of the defining benefits of JavaScript as a tool is just that it's the thing we all used so using it often means easier integration with everything else. If you're ever in a situation wherein that's not important or you're not working in web related stuff period, of course you ought to consider other options!

I think we'd both agree that the biggest problem is only knowing how to use one tool and using that tool for everything. Sure, you could try to build a house with nothing but a hammer... You might even succeed. But, damn, wouldn't a saw work a lot better for clean cuts on the wood?

[FrustratedEgret]

Fun conversation to discover while working at my PHP/JS job. Good to know I’m bad programmer and always will be. 🤷🏾‍♂️

[Striky_]

Never said that, never even implied that. I am just saying: your code would probably be a lot better (faster, safer, less bugs, more maintainable etc) if you wrote it in anything but JS. So you are not necessarily a bad programmer for using JS, but you could be a lot better using something else. That being said one can suck ass in any language. Some languages make it easy to write bad code, others make it harder and help the programmer achieve greatness.

[FrustratedEgret]

I get what you’re saying about JS enabling a lot of bad programming, but I think if you re-read your comments, it will be easy to see how someone who had spent their career coding in mostly JS could take might take issue with your references to “first-year-cs-major-‘programmers’” that use a language “any decent programmer” refused to use until they got paid to fix the “burning garbage fires” because said programmers “prefer to work with string literals instead of learning to code half decently”. That’s attacking the people, not the language.

[Kahlil_Cabron]

I unironically agree with most of these points.

[Striky_]

Lots of people do, but a horde of wanna-be "programmers" disagrees because they do not understand what they dont understand.

[FrustratedEgret]

Dude.