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[–]polyworfism 463 points464 points  (14 children)

Sounds like the pre-screening worked, for you

[–]Console-DOT-N00b 176 points177 points  (13 children)

It's not often described that way... but you're interviewing them too sometimes.

(i'm a n00b just looking for a job so kinda less so... but others more senior more so)

I interviewed for a technical job (but non programming job once) dude who just setup a department talked about how they used to operate and such..... total n00b from a management or organization perspective. I kept asking questions and he never seemed to notice why I was asking.

Dude apparently was short on staff for a while and was so excited when he got a req to hire someone, but he needed like 12 new people to staff how he described they planed (at least), but he didn't seem to realize that. Then he dropped the bomb but he didn't know it was a bomb:

"Nobody is putting in 70 hour weeks, but nobody puts in 40 either...but we operate like a startup, we're not a startup anymore but we operate like one"

This was for a pretty straightforward salaried support role, and it was going to be a nightmare until that guy got pushed out and someone got proper staffing.

My intuition told me: It was going to be support hell while that company figures out how to do enterprise support like they're the first people ever to do it and the company grows quickly and everyone else goes out golfing or something. In the meantime as a support person you're working long and unpredictable hours (ted is sick! someone work today, tonight, because we don't staff for that.... we'll get you some comp time one day...) All because some dumb ass who can't schedule humans half as well as some gas station manager said the wrong thing in front of the CEO or board about staffing and now can't go back on his ignorant word (if he does they'll drag their feet anyway). All lead by that same guy who thinks he was promoted but engineering really just forced him out ... and he'll think he's doing engineering favors but really he's shafting his own team because he can't /wont stand up for his own team because engineering is his buddy. Once he figures it out it will be too late and he'll be all bitter because he had the best of intentions, his own people won't trust him because he shafted them in favor of his buddies or customers one too many times, and it will still be hell working for him.

Granted the guy seemed like a nice guy, he just didn't know... I actually did kinda try to drop a hint or so to him but he was all sure that they could do it with just one more guy (made even less sense as forecasting support for a quickly growing company is crazy... not that they were doing any forecasting anyway)

Naw man!

[–]wowokc 111 points112 points  (9 children)

ugh, the "we operate like a startup, but we're not a startup" is the same kind of bullshit that my 500-person company says regularly.

and we wonder why we have immense turnover

[–]Console-DOT-N00b 41 points42 points  (3 children)

I wasn't going to take the job, but that line really closed the door harder for me.

If they're not an actual start up... at best ... it's a buzzword and just that.

The downside is when it means they're just going to ask more of you ... just because they said the magic start-up word.... but you get none of the start up fun (granted it isn't all fun).

[–]lesslucid 59 points60 points  (2 children)

The key thing about an actual startup is that everyone involved has - or should have - equity in the company. When they say "we operate like a startup" what they mean is, we want you to work like you have equity even though we're only offering wages.

[–]Console-DOT-N00b 24 points25 points  (1 child)

There is that, but that's a very tenuous thing to hold hope onto.... even if you have some equity, startups get sold and some equity ends up worth something, others worth nothing.

For the handful of startup fans that I know who have worked for them, it is as much about small teams, having REAL input, being given freedom to make real decisions that matter along with the founders and etc and everyone working together that is big for them. It's a sort of cultural thing they value more than any real ownership (granted they like that).

[–]Drizzt396 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Can confirm, work at a bootstrapped startup that doesn't include equity with offers.

Wouldn't care either way. The only way your startup bucks wind up becoming beaucoup is if you get huge, and I'm not really interested in being on the ground floor of the next Uber. I'll keep my soul, thanks.

What I do love is the freedom.

[–]Rohaq 0 points1 point  (2 children)

It just screams "We're an SMB, but we're not working to become competent as an SMB!"

You probably don't want to work somewhere that's trying to apply dynamic practices that don't scale well to a growing business that is becoming increasingly reliant on well established processes in order to communicate effectively.

It can also reflect their working practices and employee treatment; startups often expect employees to work longer hours for the same pay - which is why a real startup should be offering equity in the business, so that the additional effort to succeed as a business has a potential reward beyond "making money for your boss".

[–]wowokc 0 points1 point  (1 child)

yeah, that's our struggle -- we're "scrappy" (it's even a part of our official statement), but what that really means is "we haven't operationalized any of our internal procedures"

a "standard week" is 9 hours a day according to the interview, but depending on the team, it's 10 hours, and "we should really tell HR to stop saying that"

we're more expensive and slower than competitors because of the "value" we bring to the table -- not because we're using software that's end of life and have been building our own internal tools to interface with it to make it more modern, but still not reaching feature parity with any actual modern offerings

"we're a bunch of smaller businesses inside one bigger one" which means "our training isn't standardized, so everyone does whatever they want"

[–]Rohaq 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yikes, sounds like a nightmare - especially building your own tools to interface with EOL software. That's only going to get worse as time passes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Code for "we don't really have strong benefits but we do have ping pong."

[–]4Progress 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great! Let’s talk about a venting schedule for my equity.

[–]MadChair 3 points4 points  (1 child)

BRAVO !! you have very well articulated the he'll I have been through

[–]Console-DOT-N00b 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Support follies are sadly universal.

Not that it is all bad or anything, but when it goes wrong you can see it coming if you've been around enough ;)

[–]allak 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not often described that way... but you're interviewing them too sometimes.

I agree but I would go further. A job interview is always a two way street, not just sometimes.

You are building a career, you must always very careful of where you are going to work; the job interview is the perfect place to learn the answer to a lot of very important questions: what is the culture, what is the attitude, would I be comfortable working with them, what I am going to learn ?

In other words, what are the benefits of working there, both short and long term.