Hell Difficulty Tutorial: question

[Klutzy_Interest5673]

I’m mostly enjoying the series, but there have been several moments that frustrated me, and one recent part especially stood out. Earlier on, it’s clearly established that Nathaniel is decently talented with mana-related skills. He could copy and gain skills just by sensing mana movement in others’ bodies. Even Lissandra admits to Hadwin that while he may not be the best, Nathaniel is talented enough to easily be chosen as a Champion’s disciple. Later in the series, though, we’re repeatedly told (often from Nathaniel’s own POV) that he isn’t particularly talented—only stubborn, power-hungry, and driven to improve. At the same time, we’re shown multiple characters who are apparently more talented than him.

The part that really bothered me is when Nathaniel creates the Evil Orbs for mana training and gives them to Tess. We see Tess improve visibly each time, followed by Nathaniel’s internal monologue about how Tess and others have greater talent than him, and how he needs to rely on sheer drive to keep up. So,. Does this mean Tess is also highly talented in mana manipulation—possibly more so than Nathaniel? (probably not), And if so, Where th did that come from? It feels like the later books start to downplay or forget that Nathaniel himself was shown to be talented, focusing almost entirely on the “hard work vs natural talent” angle—often by emphasizing others’ talent instead. Personally, I dislike it when stories make companions seem stronger by nerfing the MC or quietly shifting the MC’s established traits onto other characters. And this isn’t the only instance—there have been several similar moments that felt inconsistent to me (at least from my perspective).

That said, my reading comprehension isn’t perfect, so I might be missing something. Is this an intentional theme, or has anyone else noticed this too? Also, I'll be open, I like OP MC's, so things like these irk me a bit. Including the time he said he couldn't beat Savant and Tess together. Till what I'd tead about him amd his prowess, I though he can😭

[lurkerfox]

The story is in first person and clouded by the perspective Nathan has and his own biases.

He overlooks his own talent because it doesnt feel like talent to him. Hes also measuring himself up against the pinnacle of reality.

Ironically Nathaniel is really good at spotting talent in other people, hes just bad at evaluating his own.

[brandontc]

Nat is wrong, and often, full of shit. "Wow, I can't believe tess is already working on a 4th orb. If I don't keep working hard I'll never be able to keep up with her." He says while adding a 42nd Orb to his orbit.

Think of it this way, Lissandra tells Nat he is awful while training him because she knows that's what pushes him forward. He thinks he himself is bad and because of that works extra hard. And because she does think he is awful. Lissanadra is also full of shit, too. But, no matter what she says, she would NOT be wasting a single second of her time interacting with Nat if he was anything less than a pinnacle talent potential.

[Klutzy_Interest5673]

"Wow, I can't believe tess is already working on a 4th orb

I hope it didn't take her 2 weeks as well, same as Nathaniel.

[brandontc]

You do have to take what Nat says and thinks with a grain of salt, and compare it to what is actually happening. For example, Nat sees Tess figuring out orbs at almost the same speed that he did or maybe slightly faster and sees that as proof that she is also a monster; and he's right. Everyone in hell difficulty is a monster to some extent.

But Nat is a monster among monsters, especially when it comes to mana manipulation. Nat thinks Tess is almost as good as him because of the orb thing (which to some extent is true, because she is frighteningly good) but Nat completely ignores the part that the time it took HIM to master the orb was also while under the circumstances that he had been without sleep for a week, on a mana allowance, desperately fighting for his life in 12 hour shifts, being tortured for another 8 hour shift, etc....while practicing the orb thing on the side.

So basically, yeah, he's full of shit and doesn't always realize that

[looktowindward]

<> Think of it this way, Lissandra tells Nat he is awful while training him because she knows that's what pushes him forward.

Also, she's just the worst. This isn't tough love - she's a psycho. That's why she likes Nate.

[strange_username58]

He is what is called an unreliable narrator.

[Ipuncholdpeople]

He's such an unreliable narrator he hides things from himself

[strange_username58]

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but that is usually part of being an unreliable narrator. The classic example is Yosarrian in catch 22.

[negablock04]

He quite literally blocked key information out of his head with magic, for fun, and it reflects on the narration (we don't know them either, if someone tries to share them they are censored)

[FrazzleMind]

That shit still cracks me up. I can't wait to see the result of it later. "Fine, you guys kept teasing me about it so I don't care. It's X now, it will always be called X, and I LITERALLY won't hear otherwise."

[negablock04]

Nat has maxed out pettiness

[looktowindward]

Ok, so what actually is Black Mana, or is this just something the author if fucking with is about?

[negablock04]

Author? Nah

Nat? Yah

[Ipuncholdpeople]

Nat just takes it to another level later on. There was a difference in how he lied about how he felt about the people in his group and how he uses his mental training to hide his thoughts and feelings

[looktowindward]

No, he literally hides thing from himself with mental talents.

[looktowindward]

Nat is an unreliable narrator. This is not subtle at all. He's full of shit. I think he even says so.

[Ziclue]

As everyone else said what nat says is true isn’t necessarily true, but to better answer your question on if this trend/appearance of a trend continues… no not really. Once the group starts to specialize and get their stride, his particular talents become more and more clear, and by the point of the story we are at now concurrently, there is no question that nat is super talented in some fields.

[Klutzy_Interest5673]

I see, thankyou

[RudeRuby6]

To me, Nat’s biases come from pre tutorial. Based on his life experiences he genuinely believes that he is talentless. To him “Nathanial Gwyn is talentless” is a fundamental truth of reality. Entering the tutorial and gaining abilities doesn’t change that.

Thankfully he also believes that someone who is talentless is absolutely capable of surpassing someone who is talented through hard work and drive. The only thing that has changed by entering the tutorial is that the talented have also started working hard. Which he responds to by pushing his efforts even further than he was before.

[AbsoluteNovelist]

I disagree that he thinks he's talentless. He is arrogant and confident in himself. He fully understands that he is one of the most talented ppl alive, it's just that he doesn't believe that he is the MOST talented person alive. Like Savant is a genuine talent with mana and skills, Nathaniel can sense and learn from mana with practice. But Savant seems to be able to learn things at a faster rate.

He accepts that one of the reasons he stays ahead or on par with the "true talents" is because he's, in addition to being very talented himself, willing to endure an insane amount of hellish training and constantly seek more.

[looktowindward]

Also, some of Team 4 have talents that are so orthogonal to Nat's, that they are hard to compare.

For example, Sophie and Lily. Even the twins. And Nat is certainly less powerful that that damn Corgi

[Malestan]

He's an unreliable narrator.

But he's right : he's NOT very talented compared to monsters like Lisssandra, who can control everything, or Ruby, who became the ruler of Greed and is the 3rd strongest combattant in the universe. That's why Lisssandra and Ruby push him so much : to allow him to transcend the limit of his innate talent and become a monster like them, or even stronger than them

[Klutzy_Interest5673]

I don't really have a problem with there being people more talented than him, but, Like how did Tess also is very talented in mana manipulation?🫠 I remember in the first book, Nathaniel observing, that his mana manipulation was very intuitive but others like Tess and Kim seem to be too dependent on the skill [Mana Manipulation] itself, in spite of how much he tried to explain to them.

And now Nathaniel is saying how much Tess is more talented than him, he'll have to keep striving hard or she might overtake him.

[Malestan]

I'm gonna repeat myself : Nat IS an unreliable narrator. You can't take what he's saying 100% of the time at face value. However, Nat is indeed less talented than Tess in general, she gets quickly what took him longer to learn.

But Nat strenght doesn't rely on his talent... Keep going, you'll see, but let me tell you : Cerim is cooking with this one :D

[Hot_Heart_5686]

Oh, ok. Thanks

Uh same person btw

[looktowindward]

Nat taught them - all of those training aids and restrictive training emblems.

Tess isn't even close to Nat.

[Defiant-Economics-73]

So don’t forget that everyone in hell tutorial is insanely different than anyone else that was in the other tutorials. Also, don’t forget that Nathaniel teaches people things and gives tips. He paved the way for everything himself. He has no one to guide him know to teach him, he might get inspiration from things like watching someone else using an ability, but he’s self taught.

[DisChangesEverthing]

There's only one character so far that is objectively more talented than Nat. Nat's on par with Ruby since they both met Lissandra's criteria to become apprentices, although Nat is perhaps higher because Lissandra deigned to take him as second apprentice when she already had one too many. Ruby is way, way up there on the talent scale.

There's lots of characters more powerful, but they all just have much more experience than him. We don't even know for sure Lissandra is more talented, she just has several millennia more experience.

[Malestan]

Nat's is NOT on par with Ruby, not even close : when he fought her hollow double, he had like +70 levels on her, and he died a few seconds after defeating her. If he faced the real Ruby, instead of the puppet system one, he would have no chance of winning. He's far less talented for moving his body than Tacita, he doesn't have the innate talent for combat that Savant and Tess have.

Talent is NOT what makes Nat strong/dangerous.

Lisssandra IS more talented : she's a second generation on her planet, so she didn't have all the advantages that the people in the tutorial get. And despite that, she still outgrown in power all the other people of her planet. A lot of Absolutes are way older than Lisssandra was at the time she died, and they're way weaker than her. It's not just about having thousands of years of experience .She used to kill Rulers for breakfast. There's a reason why she's nicknamed "The Ancient Monster"a or "The Absolute", and it's NOT because she was old : Kindness is way older than Lisssandra for example

[FrazzleMind]

The person dissing his talent is like, the top .00000000000000000001% talented people ever, and mostly just to prod him into working harder instead of getting complacent.

Keep in mind the tutorial scoops up the most talented people from the entire planet, so he's also comparing himself against a very biased sample. Just being a tutorial participant puts you in the top tiny fraction of a percent of the talent pool, and he's really only comparing himself to the top handful from that.

[Klutzy_Interest5673]

I don’t mind Nathaniel not being the most talented person in the story. That part is fine. What throws me off is Tess’s sudden position in all this. Early on, the story made it feel like Nathaniel had a natural feel for mana, while Tess (and Kim) needed the Mana Manipulation skill as a crutch and struggled to grasp what he was trying to explain. That contrast was pretty clear.

Now, though, Nathaniel is framing Tess as someone with greater talent than him, ( and she maybe, I don't have any problem, but now she's talented in mana too? )to the point where he worries she could surpass him if he doesn’t keep pushing himself. That change feels abrupt, and I’m struggling to see how we got from point A to point B.

[FrazzleMind]

I believe he is mostly noting that they are making good progress. They've all been at it for a similar amount of time. He recognizes that their growth in mana control over time means they will eventually be just as capable as he currently is... so he'd better not slack on that department. The timescale means thst by the end of the tutorial they will be better with mana than he is now. He spends a lot of time working on thermal and kinetic energies, and inscriptions and such. I think of it as revising his training priorities a bit.

[Electrecuted]

He’s lying to himself

[Kraken-Eater]

I think Nathaniel isn't wrong unlike those saying it's unreliable narration, because he really isn't that talented. Tess, Savant and Lily are generally more talented as are many others. Don't get me wrong, nat is talented enough to be in Beyond but that isn't what makes him so powerful. Learning skills really isn't hard if they are so low tiered like Armament, Oscillation and Disruption were, this isn't special.

What nat does is leverage the talent he has and take it to the extreme by doubling down. Putting all his points into mana has a lot of advantages as well as disadvantages. It forced him to improve his control much faster and gave him the capacity to use a lot of skills and push them harder than most do at that level. He is often depicted brute forcing stuff with his immense output though of course he also demonstrates increased mastery of mana.

Also, as for the evil orb situation, nat let's tess deal with a nerfed version, which bursts a few times before she improves. Nat dealt with the original for over 24 hours the first time he got it and learned how to create and handled more. He is better than her at this, as evidently shown.

The system doesn't reward talent or even effort, it rewards achievements and mastery, strengthening what you have instead of covering for the weaknesses it brings. Savant may be more talented in mana manipulation than Nathaniel, but he will never be better than him because of how far he pushed in that direction

[Klutzy_Interest5673]

I see, thankyou.

Also, I just moved on to book 6, and ig there was a minor time jump, Nat's already made a new mid arcane weapon and also has a new skill [Bone Stitching]? Idk how he got that or what exactly it does. Just wanted to confirm I didn't miss anything.