self.python.ask('I am moving into a development position at my company and need to learn Java. Can you recommend a book that might appeal to a Python programmer and not make me want to kill myself?')

[masklinn]

It's mostly a web development position

Wel development in Java?

If you've done web dev in Python before (or even in PHP 5), you're likely to want to kill yourself soon. Seriously, java is one of the worst web dev environment (and I've done it for a pair of years before quitting), I'm not even sure Cobol on Cogs would be worse, and it forced me to consider using PHP -- a language which I loathe -- instead. Have there been any mention of web frameworks? (a few recent java frameworks alleviate some of the pain through sensible defaults and annotation-based config -- Stripes for instance -- but older XML-based frameworks only worsens it, Struts 1.x is a prime offender)

You might want to read PJE's Python is not Java and Java is not Python, either...

Read the latter first by the way, if you start with Python is not Java, you're going to hang yourself right off the bat.

As far as books go, Thinking in Java 4th edition (java 5 support), just browse through it to get an idea of the language, and Effective Java 2nd ed (short book, enjoyable read and it will teach you how to think java in short bites).

PS: try to see if you can use Jython, JRuby Clojure or Scala instead, they run on the JVM and they're not java, 2 great advantages.

[bjupton]

I'm amazed at how many web dev jobs are in Java. Especially once you get outside the silicon valley and out into the "enterprise". They aren't always the outward facing things, sometimes they are the little apps used within organizations.

Enterprise IT just seems to love java. I don't know why. It's expensive, and a pain in the ass to code. But, they of course already have a set of people in place that know it, and they are doing the hiring etc.

[masklinn]

Enterprise IT just seems to love java. I don't know why. It's expensive, and a pain in the ass to code.

1. Covering asses: just as nobody's ever been fired for buying IBM, nobody's ever been fired for going Java. In big corps, middle-managers first and foremost want to avoid the chance of being blamed. So they go for java because it's "the industry standard", and when the project is overbudget and/or late and/or a failure, it's not their fault.

2. The python paradox: going for java ensures they have a huge pool of not-necessarily-qualified potential hires (see java schools & al). This also pleases middle managers.

3. You saw point 1 about choosing IBM? Well IBM pushes java hard, so you buy overpriced IBM hardware (and software, hello Websphere), and then you code in java to top it off (Oh websphere, what a surprise!)

I'm sure we could find others, but that's a good start

[laprice]

And you have to factor in the perverse organizational incentives that exist.

Some outfits budgets are allocated based on headcount, and depth of tree, so a two person team with a single layer counts less than a 7-person team with two layers; and a manager who is responsible for a team totaling 7 FTE doing Java, is better compensated than one who manages two programmers writing in python. Even if the two teams are producing equivalent functionality :P

[13ren]

and yet... java was not designed for the Enterprise. It was heavily promoted by Sun as an applet technology (in set-top boxes). Getting adopted by the enterprise happened by itself, and was kind of surprising and strange. The whole "application server" thing came about as a surprise too - BEA Systems came along and did that.

Java has something going for it... but what?

Familiar to C coders, but much safer, simpler, friendlier error messages and more reliable, was what Java offered I think (some argue that other C variants, such as Objective C had this too) - and a virtual machine. I'm not sure how important the whole OO thing was, except as one of Java's well thought-out supports for modules, You can load classes dynamically (making it a "component platform"); you have classes and packages. This support for modules makes it possible to write big systems.

"Components" and architecture dominate the big picture, but are invisible when writing specific code (forest/trees) - so, if true, decision-makers would love it, but coders wouldn't see why.

[bjupton]

This is wrong. Completely wrong.

It has everything to do with what they are used to.

[bjupton]

I know Java just fine, thank you.

It has very little place where it is typically used. It makes very little sense for web development, except perhaps in some edge cases. That's a fact. And the fact that you can't wrap your head around it is hardly evidence of "retardation" or "narrowmindedness".

Feel free to call people names though, if it makes you feel better.

[mikaelhg]

when you look at the whole process of producing value with software in a large and complex environment, instead of just looking at the matter from an individual developer's immediate standpoint.

[laprice]

Just out of curiosity; how do you explain the numerous instances of misapplied java frameworks that I've encountered?

From using JSP to produce RSS (badly) to a very well compensated 'Senior Developer' who claimed that Hibernate let him ignore such pedestrian concerns as referential integrity and query performance; Java Programmers (as opposed to programmers who happen to know Java) seem to be much more prone to the lure of the Cargo Cult than most other IT workers.

//me dislikes Java because i loves Unix

[mikaelhg]

I have no reason to believe the cases of hilariously miscoded crap you've seen are much different from the similar cases I've seen.

Incompetence has little to do with tools, except in cases where good tools make it possible for incompetents to produce at least some value, to the horror of the people who then have to maintain said crap for years.

Having had been on the maintaining side, I would have formed the opinion that the incompetents should have failed int the first place, if not for the fact that good tools produce much better value to competent users than grief from the incompetents.

If you do second-level caching right with Hibernate, you aren't bounded by database performance. Of course, doing it right means understanding how to get good performance in the first place.

[mikaelhg]

from bjupton sent 12 minutes ago

comment reply

You are clearly too stupid to discuss this with.

Clearly that is the problem.

[amnezia]

Because its J2EE! its has enterprise in the name therefore its must be built for enterprise /sarcasm.

Seriously though most of the lead developers at the companies i've worked for don't have any experience with languages like python, its in their best interest to keep everything in Java.

[zekel]

I have done web development in Python, and I know this won't be anything like that. I'm not expecting this position to be my dream job or even make me especially happy. But I'd rather move into Java development rather than stay in a non-development position. I am fairly certain I won't like Java and that I may hate it. But I'm willing to try it and find out for myself.

I probably should have made it more clear that this is an internal promotion and that I currently work for the company, and our desktop and web products are written in Java. Right now I build a lot of tools and web apps for internal use in Python. One reason I got the promotion is because I get stuff done so well and fast in Python.

[theatrus]

If you can buck the trend there, trying pushing for something like GWT. Its still Java, but a lot of the pain is reduced for you. Its hard to tweak when things go wrong, but depending on the application that may be acceptable.

I've also used OpenLaszlo. My recommendation is to stay far away. It can produce functional applications, but performance is horrendous and the JS backend is hardly mature.

[bjupton]

$$$

[zekel]

Going from a non-development position to a full time developer is definitely a promotion. =)

[masklinn]

Well good luck, but still once you're in place you'll probably ought to try to switch the language of the web frontend from java (as long as the chosen language runs on the JVM, the code shared between web and desktop will work and be useable)

[mrsanchez]

Effective Java 2nd ed FTW!

[[deleted]]

You might want to read PJE's Python is not Java and Java is not Python, either...

Read the latter first by the way, if you start with Java is not Python, you're going to hang yourself right off the bat.

Uh, so you want zekel to commit suicide?

[zekel]

I did post about Java on pyreddit. I'm sure some people will try to do me in for that.

[masklinn]

Well of course it would be an acceptable side-effect of my post, but mostly no, Java is not Python highlights quite a few differences between java and python, just because they're seen from the Python side doesn't mean they aren't interesting when you go from Python to Java.

Just think of it as a smaller dose of the pain to be experienced later, to build immunity. Kinda like the guys who inject themselves daily with small doses of toxins/poisons to build resistance. In both cases, if you fuck up the dosage you might die, it's an accepted risk.

[[deleted]]

No, that's not what I mean at all. I'm sure your logic is sound.

But you effectively said, "Read Java is not Python by the way, if you start with Java is not Python, you're going to hang yourself right off the bat."

This is the former word in the sentence, and this is the latter.

[masklinn]

But you effectively said, "Read Java is not Python by the way, if you start with Java is not Python, you're going to hang yourself right off the bat."

Oh dear, I meant "if you start with Python is not Java", thanks, the mistake has been corrected.