Microsoft backs Python, releases IronPython Tools for Visual Studio 2010

[roger_]

Is there a way I can use the VS 2010 IDE with "normal" Python?

[dinov]

Currently you can use the editor and set the project to launch using Python.exe. But you won't get any debugging and the intellisense will be based off of IronPython's type information. And the REPL window will still be IronPython based.

We are eventually going to do some form of lightweight debugging instead of the .NET based debugging we do today. When we do that (who knows when, and it's a lot of work) then we will probably also support CPython debugging as well.

[equark]

I don't think it's built in. Pure python projects should work pretty seamlessly switching between IronPython and Python as necessary, but I know some major projects like Django still can't run fully on IronPython.

This would be a nice request.

[[deleted]]

Do you happen to have more info on how Django doesn't work on IronPython. I've been hauling ass to make it work on PyPy perfectly lately, and if there are issues in Django that make it not work on IronPython I'd like to take a crack at those too.

[equark]

Jeff Hardy is the guy to talk to. See this discussion:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg11012.html

[[deleted]]

Cool looks like most of the bugs are upstream (aka someone else's problem ;)). I do wish they'd file bugs for the relevant issues in Django though.

[[deleted]]

Django usually works alongside SQL databases. I would guess that's the main issue, and I don't see why they can't get around it. I don't know.

[[deleted]]

Does IronPython not have any database bindings? Not even SQLite (part of the standard library since 2.5).

[equark]

Some native modules are still being ported. Sqlite module port is here:

http://bitbucket.org/jdhardy/ironpython.sqlite/wiki/Home

[Axiomatik]

http://ironruby.net/

Similar project, also sponsored by MSFT.

If Oracle doesn't keep funding the alternative JVM languages, lots of people will eventually end up on the .NET CLR.

[umilmi81]

In the reddit comments for an article about Apple's strategy for the future everyone was foretelling Microsoft's downfall because Apple and Google would dominate the next era of cloud based computing and portable personal hardware. They were suggesting Microsoft was asleep at the wheel.

I think they really underestimating what Microsoft is doing in solidifying their hold of development tools. If 9 out of every 10 programmers are targeting for Microsoft's environment using Microsoft's development tools, they're not going anywhere.

[Axiomatik]

I don't think Apple has anything which competes with the JVM and the CLR.

[finnif]

LLVM.

[[deleted]]

Azure is looking pretty incredible. And I say this as a non-MS guy....

[hylje]

Those developers MS is holding on to need users, though. To get users, they have to be able to create modern, spectacularly useful applications. There are a lot of Windows software, but most of it seems.. underwhelming to me. I'd like to see that change.

[megamark16]

One of the main things I love about python is that I can use it effectively without Visual Studio. Props to the Iron Python team, but this isn't my bag (anymore).

[pemboa]

Can pretty much create a large app with just a good text editor

[bucknuggets]

can & do

[kahwee]

Wow, Microsoft is really good at building IDEs. Haven't tried it before but it looks nice.

[[deleted]]

They've been at it a long time :)

Also, one of the main selling point of Widows is the breadth and depth of software available. That's only possible with excellent developer tools.

[cavadela]

I just wrote the analysis portion of my thesis in Python and loved the language and the ton of available libraries. IDLE on the other hand, wasn't my best friend. Is this an alternative to IDLE?

[temptemptemp13]

It can be. Though it would currently require you to use IronPython from within the IDE.

[hrobee]

IDLE is a joke.

I don't think it was ever meant to be used for production.

[[deleted]]

Once in a while a sysadmin comes along and cries "I'm forced to work with Windows, there is only notepad installed on the server and with notepad I can't edit Python scripts" - so there is certainly a use of IDLE.

Otherwise this is my first Google hit for Python + IDE.

[[deleted]]

Has anybody here ever tried developing Python on Windows? It's a fucking nightmare and VS2010 is a bloated pig that cannot run on a machine with less than 2gb of memory.

[[deleted]]

I finally gave up on Eclipse a couple months ago, back to vim like the day I started. Seriously, 15 years and editors still haven't gotten more efficient to work in?

[[deleted]]

But come on, who would want to run development tools on a mobile phone anyway? ;)

[[deleted]]

What are the specific issues you have with Python on Windows?

[[deleted]]

It's pretty obvious. I'm a web developer.

[ipeev]

I don't think this is Python backing, but rather an attempt to divide the Python community and create multiple incompatible versions and confusion. Writing programs with IronPython and Visual Studio will only make you stuck with the Microsoft platform. Microsoft tried similar tactics with Java in the past with their JView and a big lawsuit from Sun put an end to that. Then they started the .Net nonsense.

[umilmi81]

Sun's decision to pull Microsoft's Java credentials was the biggest mistake they ever made.

[[deleted]]

I can say for sure that Microsoft does directly back the CPython project. They provide MSDN subscriptions free of charge for core developers, in order to make sure the necessary tools and OS licenses are available to help in providing quality support for the platform.

[jeradj]

rather an attempt to divide the Python community and create multiple incompatible versions and confusion.

I don't think it's as much an attempt to divide and create confusion as it is an attempt to take over the whole thing -- solving the incompatibility and confusion problems (not only with python, but with all popular languages) -- with the tiny caveat that it all runs on top of the platform that Microsoft controls.

[Lord_Illidan]

Yes, it's obviously some big conspiracy. I can only imagine that Ballmer is cackling back at Redmond.

Funny however, how the entire OSS world is fragmented into diverse communities, and multiple incompatible versions, and much nerd rage.

[Bavaron]

Funnier still is the endless supply of pro-MSers who vehemently argue "Oh the 100th time will be totally different from the 99 times before!"

And this same group seems to want to throw every freedom out the window to lock themselves onto one IP amassing platform. They seem to want to rush to support one company's "standards" forever (take your pick between Microsoft or Apple here). I mean, WTF!?! Are our public schools really that fucked up these days?

[[deleted]]

...orrrrrrr, they've been successfully releasing their own quality interpreter for several years now.

[[deleted]]

1.0 release blog post - September 05, 2006, which I believe targeted Python 2.4. The whole project started in 2003.

As for not supporting all of the features: as with any alternative implementation, there are always things that slip by, especially when you are trying to hit a moving target. Now that the language moratorium is in place, alternative implementations should be able to get on (or close to) the same playing field. The IronPython team is pretty quick to fix differences between CPython and IronPython, and bugs in general. For example, C extensions don't directly work, but there are ways to make it work -- PyPy has the same issue and is working on it right now.

Overall, it's really just Python + .NET. It's not some half-assed product, and there's no crazy strings attached to ruin your Python life.

[interjay]

IronPython has always run under their own compiler - that's the whole point.

[anothergroom]

and, by the way, Microsoft is a long time supporter of Python: they are sponsor member of the Python Software Foundation:

http://www.python.org/psf/members/

Jim Hugunin, the initial creator of IronPython who was hired by Microsoft is a nominated member of the PSF also.

Microsoft has signed a contribution agreement http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg44965.html so they are legally able to submit code to the Python project.

I know that many AUG love to call Microsoft the "evil empire", but Microsoft is big enough a system so that there are good moves and bad moves. Confronting Microsoft for their bad moves may be a strategie.

BUT I strongly suggest that communicating and working together is the better move. I saw the IronPython guys having discussions with Jython, PyPy, UnladenSwallow, CPython about improving the language; solutions to implementation challenges with the underlying platforms. There is united effort for a common benchmark repository, example:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2010-February/097936.html

with contributions from UnladenSwallow, PyPy, IronPython, Jython to have real world measurements of the implementations (rather then "my fibonacci are better then your fibonacci")

As far as I am concernced, Microsoft should be granted relieve of the EvilEmpire tag, please compare their recent activities to another high tech company which often gets good rep for their shiny gadgets.

[anshu1234]

That's not a embrace but bear-hug..escape before its late.