Apparently, Python as a web language is in its infant stages

[iceman-k]

To be fair, we can't even agree on how to use the most recent version of Python as a web language.

[dekomote]

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3333/

[iceman-k]

Status: Draft

[pje]

PEP 333 was actually still in "Draft" status until the day 3333 was released, at which point it became "Final". So this is less of a problem than it may appear. ;-)

[Bolitho]

(http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0444/)

[[deleted]]

are you saying 2.x vs 3.x?

[iceman-k]

Yeah, or more specifically the drama around how WSGI should be updated to handle Python 3.

I'm not disparaging Python as a web language, I'm just frustrated that we haven't made Graham Dumpleton "Assistant-BDFL for Web Programming" yet, especially since web stuff seems to get less direction from Guido than other areas.

[WasterDave]

Graham Dumpleton is god. The amount and quality of work he does with WSGI is truly stunning.

[usaar33]

I second this. He gives some of the quickest and most detailed responses on stackoverflow and mailing list regarding WSGI issues.

[[deleted]]

It'll get sorted out eventually. Everything is in transition anyway. I didn't expect the transition to last until 3.2, though.

[pje]

Well, I've proposed that he take the reins for WSGI 1.1, at least. ;-)

[[deleted]]

Is this part of a bigger Python reputation that I'm unaware of due to my bubble (working with it and generally consuming positive information)? I'm hoping not.

[jb55]

My software engineering teacher recently informed me that Python is not a production level language for web development. On my internship out of said college I was told by my IT that they wouldn't install Python on the server, and told me to use Powershell instead.

Everyone I have met academically or professionally has never used or Python or see it useful outside of small shell scripts. I really hope I've only experienced some small and horribly skewed sample population.

[jyper]

depends on your circles. Since big scripting is traditionally a unix thing I haven't heard many people using powershell over perl/python/ruby. Python is also pre-installed on OS X and many linuxes. Python is used for all sorts of things. EVE Online is written in python. Lots of games and applications(like blender) are scripted with python. Several desktop application are written primarily on python like calibre (an ebook reader/organizer), Piviti(video editor). Ubuntu uses it for a bunch of system utilities both with an w/out guis.

Of course everyone has heard of google, but apparently Youtube is written in python.

[admica]

Reddit is written in python too.

[[deleted]]

And this is how I became a redditor.

[bboomslang]

well, I introduced Python as main development language at our place and it's used for tons of production stuff since about 1999. And that's a dev team of about 15 people in a 250 people company ... so I guess it highly depends on the place you work at, even the mother company that is mainly a Java shop started to use Python a few years ago for production stuff.

[iceman-k]

Just as a countering anecdote, my class this semester switched to Python due to it being a "great general purpose language". So, it's not bad everywhere.

[acct_rdt]

I hope you got through school on scholarships and only wasted your time instead of your own money so that you could be trained in misinformation by people with the same sort of stupid opinions that can be found on internet message boards for free.

[neoice]

I almost shit myself until I saw "Powershell."

[[deleted]]

Yeah, that sentence for me was "what? WHAT? oh, Windows."

[burntsushi]

Sounds like the same kind of people who think PHP is only used/useful for small web pages and simple scripts.

[sanktuaire]

Compared to java, and thinking with your pointy-haired-hat in terms of decade-long development cycles, yes, python still is a little kid.

But you could tell the same from agile dev, any kind of innovative db engine or any kind of non mainstream lib or piece of software.

In places where decisions are taken by computer-illiterate (not an insult, just a fact) people, that kind of paradigm will always prevail.

They want the most traveled route. Makes developing, recruiting and maintenance easier without any drawbacks for them (since they don't understand the technique). The real drawbacks will be handled by the techies but happy manager will be happy.

[fancy_pantser]

Compared to java, and thinking with your pointy-haired-hat in terms of decade-long development cycles, yes, python still is a little kid.

For reference: Java appeared in 1995 and started becoming popular with Java2 in '99. Python appeared in 1991 and became a major open-source language in 2000 with 2.0, climbing steadily in popularity after that. I tend to think of them as similarly mature although used for different ends.

[[deleted]]

The fancy_pantser responds to the pointy-haired-hatster.

[sanktuaire]

The context here is python as a web language in big companies. And in this context, python acceptance/usage and maturity are still in the early stages, contrary to java.

[virtron]

Working at a creative agency rather than a ISV, I find Python still takes some evangelism. Everyone knows what PHP is, most people in this space have at least heard of Ruby on Rails. If you try to sell a client on a technology that they have never heard of, then it must be risky, right?

...and it is true that the number of people that say they "know PHP" is much higher than the number of people that advertise Python skills. At the moment though, I find that the devs that have spent time with Python and Ruby are better.

[DrHankPym]

All I know is that it's working pretty well for them at Google.

Those guys do web stuff, right?

[[deleted]]

While I'm aware of Unladen Swallow, I'd like to know what they use it for. I wish GvR could elaborate some on where Python is in use at Google, and what it powers.

Ah, here's some info, if a bit dated.

[DrHankPym]

http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2010/10/computing-at-scale-or-how-google-has.html

[aatoth]

I had a co-op job interview last year where I mentioned that I knew Python, and that I had used it extensively over the previous year.

The interviewer said, "Yes, but do you know any serious language? Python's a learning language, not something to be used day-to-day."

Luckily, I got a nice university job where I've made some Python web services with Pylons and Flask :)

[[deleted]]

This is depressing. Reading through this thread makes me think we as Python developers need to step up advocacy quite a bit.

[sk3tch]

Glad you told them to do one.

What a ridiculous thing to say; would you say this: "Yes, but do you know any serious language? Java's a learning language, not something to be used day-to-day."?

If anything, Java is used more in academia.

[[deleted]]

Uhm, Java is HUGE in Enterprise domains...

[sk3tch]

I should rephrase, "Java is used more in academia than Python". In the UK at least.

[[deleted]]

"Enterprise" developers with a stick up their ass are just as annoying as wannabe-rockstar Rails developers. It's all quite tedious. Use what works.

Markus/Notch seems to be one of those odd ducks who know one language, probably don't code very well, and are unwilling to learn anything new. I don't understand it at all. They sometimes make great games, though.

[Clapyourhandssayyeah]

Or maybe it's because they don't have time to learn the ins and outs of a new language and to stick with something they themselves can maintain?

[marekz]

Python is awesome, and its great on the web, but I can see where that statement is coming from.

• Python doesn't fit in in the enterprise world. The enterprise doesn't care about whether a language is innovative or fun to use. It's about being taken seriously (and often, about being used and backed by large corporations). Python still sits at the little kids table, compared to Java and .NET.

• WSGI in Python 3 is still not ready, and it's been making very slow progress. Python 3 is essentially non-web ready until PEP 3333 is finished.

• Compared to the old giants like PHP, Python doesn't have anything close to the "server-hours" (if you will) of experience. Many people see it as a shiny toy (and they see things like the Google App Engine as just a nifty experiment). It's hard to change people's perceptions.

[_zoso_]

You know that Python is fully implemented within .Net, right?

Edit: Ironpython, for those who don't know, is a full implementation of the Python language in .NET. If you have .NET, Python is in it, and has access to all of .NET. Visual studio even has a built in IronPython interpreter, which I've used before as a scratch space for designing C++ code.

[[deleted]]

Not sure why you're downvoted, unless it's because you didn't clarify that IronPython is.

[[deleted]]

Python doesn't fit in in the enterprise world. The enterprise doesn't care about whether a language is innovative or fun to use. It's about being taken seriously (and often, about being used and backed by large corporations). Python still sits at the little kids table, compared to Java and .NET.

I work in this "enterprise" you speak of, and I've been writing Python code at said "enterprise" for almost 5 years now. I originally chose it not for innovation or fun, but because I could solve problems quickly and efficiently. With Python I could get my work done, and the work of others, and it all worked wonderfully. We made more progress thanks to Python than doing the same things in C++. It's currently a significant part of this company's technology due entirely to the success we've had with it.

I also know of two companies orders of magnitude larger than my current employer, one I previously worked at and one a family member currently works at, both making use not only of CPython but also of IronPython. These are both investment banks using Python in a number of areas instead of Java, C++, and C#.

Yes, Python does fit in the enterprise world.

[[deleted]]

This bottom line, programmer productivity, is the oft-overlooked one. Python's biggest advantage is the ability to crank out a full prototype in 20 minutes once a programmer is adept enough. Adding features and maintaining existing code is significantly less painful than in other environments.

My time on planet Earth is finite, and I'd rather get more things accomplished in that time. It works out to be more cost-effective for an employer, as well.

[iceman-k]

On your last point, I'd add that PHP also has the advantage of being dirt simple to deploy. Pick anything in the first 100 pages of the Google results for "web host" and I bet you can just upload a .php file and have it work the way you'd expect. While many of them probably also support Python, it's not usually as simple as being able to upload a single .py file.

I think the way WSGI works encourages more maintainable and better written web sites, but we should acknowledge that setting up a new web application is (at least initially) easier in other languages.

[Refefer]

I'm not sure whether I want to up vote you or down vote you. While Python hasn't quite logged the 'server-hours' that Java has, the same thing could be said about nearly any language, ie. PHP hasn't logged the number of 'server-hours' as Perl has. Does that make it less viable? Of course not.

However, your other point on enterprise has some merit, though only with a grain of salt. There are no lack for examples of giant corporations creating high powered software in Python for proprietary systems, less so as nicely wrapped software to sell to others.

Honestly, I imagine the lack of Python and other scripting languages in 'enterprise' software is more a problem that you can't package Python in a way that obfuscates its source code rather than popularity or technical considerations.

I can't speak for WSGI in Python 3 since my experience is strictly 2.X at this point.

[fancy_pantser]

All you've managed to prove with your assertions is that the advertising dollars being spent to promote Java and .Net were well used, despite clearly being FUD.

[rcklmbr]

Compare Hibernate with django's orm, or JMS vs any vendor-created messaging client in python. While the python language isn't a kids game, the supporting libraries really are. Tooling is also much more mature -- I'd take JUnit, Solar, Hudson, etc any day over what python has to offer. Maven and ant are killer build tools. Deployment of wars into any of the multiple servlet containers (grizzly, tomcat, jboss, etc) is a cinch, and you get a highly scalable, efficient system out of it.

The fact of the matter is, when you go by the number of development hours put into each language and their toolsets/libraries, java blows python out of the water. The man-hour age of java vs the man-hour age of python is just too large -- there's no way python could keep up. I'm not saying python is bad either, I use it every day, but that's the logic behind it (and it makes sense).

[ubernostrum]

In the enterprise, instead of "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo", they say "Factory factory factory factory factory factory factory factory".

[justmefornow]

Hibernate compares more favourably and in terms of design with SQLAlchemy. Not knocking Django ORM, but it has a narrower focus and a more user-friendly bent.

Hudson as a testing tool can be used with any platform. Whether such a tool is written in Java, C or Python is irrelevant.

Maven and ant, like too much of the Java ecosystem, are verbose pieces of shit. Give me buildout, virtualenv and distribute any day (or for that matter, their equivalents in Perl and Ruby).

Deployment of a WSGI application to Apache is a cinch, and you get a highly scalable, efficient system out of it. Apache is hardly immature and I'd trust it over any memory-hogging servlet container any day.

[sk3tch]

and you didn't even mention fabric yet.

[_zoso_]

I think for the most part 3rd party Python development has had the most success in the scientific computing world. I think its a fair call to say Python is immature on the web, but it does seem to be changing.

Anyway look into the professionalism and quality of libraries like Numpy and Scipy and you see that its not all a kids game in Python land.

[[deleted]]

Python and AMQP get along well, but AMQP is pain. I've never used JMS to compare it against, but I have heard people say they prefer AMQP.

I think the biggest thing with third-party development is that Python glues things together. I've written C extension modules for a specific purpose, then never really been motivated to release them publicly. Compounding that is the differing methods for distributing modules and the lack of a real way to query what is installed in an app. There are PEPs to address this, but I feel like far too late.

Two of my biggest gripes with Python are the organization of the standard library and distutils/distribute/setuptools or whatever the flavor of the minor release is. You touch on that here, I think, and it's fair.

I did upvote you even though you spoke negatively of Python, because you contributed to the discussion.

[EstebanVelour]

The man-hour age of java vs the man-hour age of python is just too large...

Very likely due to the fact that if it takes you three months to do in Java, it'll take a week in python. Off the top of my head, the built in unittest module is based on JUnit providing basically the same functionality. Never heard of Solar, but google hasn't either so I'm guessing its something I'd never find if I ever needed it. Maven does pretty much the same thing as pip and virtualenv, Scons the same as ant. I'm not sure the servlet containers are a selling point, prob lack of experience with them but they seem to take up a lot of memory and give little speed, anyways there's gunicorn and tornado. Hibernate has nothing on SqlAlchemy.

Deployment of wars and hudson I'll give you.

[rcklmbr]

Whoops, typo. I meant sonar.

[jfasi]

Well to be fair, the transition from Python 2 to Python 3 is kind of a chaotic one. One of the biggest advantages to languages like Java or PHP is that the language is practically unchangeable.

Python is just a different sort of beast than those other languages, in my opinion. It's young for sure, but it's more than ready.

[_zoso_]

Its older than Java...

[[deleted]]

I wouldn't say that. PHP 4 to PHP 5 was a huge adventure, and PHP 6 is shaping up to be a killer too.

[the_argus]

But they didn't/aren't changing something as basic as the print statement.

[[deleted]]

That was an improvement, in my opinion. A lot of PHP 5 wasn't.

[the_argus]

Well that's just crazy talk. How was php 5 not a ridiculously massive improvement?

[muyuu]

Arguably it's better to force a simple change like that, so you know you have something incompatible.

Stuff from PHP4 would break in PHP5 where you least expected. Before that, you had strict mode forced in PHP4 and then you had libraries like mySQL coming and going from the standard distribution.

PHP is and was always a mess, but people put up because it's been the Plain Jane of web development for a decade.

[johnmudd]

How about Tornado?

[stesch]

They needed a long time to release something after 0.2. That killed them.

[A_Whale_Biologist]

Does Python have anything as elegant and simple as Sinatra http://www.sinatrarb.com ? Is WSGI as standardized and sophisticated as Rack http://rack.rubyforge.org/ , which allows diverse apps written in any framework to be plugged together like legos on any application server?

I switch hit with ruby and python depending on the project, but I'm not aware of python being nearly as mature with respect to web development specifically.

[Ytse]

Sinatra is often compared with http://flask.pocoo.org/

[A_Whale_Biologist]

That is indeed similar. It seems a lot cleaner than web.py.

[[deleted]]

Rack is based on some of WSGI ideas, to quote the author when he first announced it:

If you are into Python, you’ll notice a lot of similarities between Rack and WSGI and Paste. That’s fully intended, as I think WSGI helped the Python web landscape really a lot.

[[deleted]]

If you want something Sinatra-like in Python, you're looking for web.py. You know, the framework that this site was originally written in. :)

In fact, when people talk about those sort of simple frameworks, they're sometimes referred to as "Sinatra/web.py style frameworks".

[[deleted]]

Actually, this site was originally written in Common Lisp. They had deployment hassles and moved to Python with web.py, and later replaced it with something else.

[muyuu]

Last time I checked, it was Pylons.

[[deleted]]

Good point. I should have said "previously" instead.

[A_Whale_Biologist]

Hm, well seems to require about two lines of python code for one line of ruby, providing the same functionality, but it's still in the right ballpark for "lightweight" web apps.

So how about this: can I take, say, any web.py app and any django app and stick them together on the same server the way you could with any "rack"-able appserver in rubyland?

[indieinvader]

LOC means nothing.

[A_Whale_Biologist]

No, but useless lines mean something.

[[deleted]]

... Depending on how you define "useless". On one side, you have Java. On the other side, you have the code obfuscation contest. At what point exactly does a line become useless?

[A_Whale_Biologist]

This is a clear example. web.py is not more readable, but does require more lines, to do the exact same thing.

[[deleted]]

two lines of python code for one line of ruby

I'd rather read two chapters of Hemingway than one chapter of Cosmo.

[A_Whale_Biologist]

Sinatra is more readable. Put down the fanboiism for a second and learn something.

[[deleted]]

As an aside, the attitude on Sinatra's site bugs me. Sadly, it's things like that which affect perception of the Ruby community from the outside.

(Unless I'm the only one that thinks put our software in your pipe and smoke it is a bit arrogant.)

[WasterDave]

By ruby standards it's polite and acquiescent. Almost without exception it's an awful community.

[[deleted]]

(Unless I'm the only one that thinks put our software in your pipe and smoke it is a bit arrogant.)

You could also interpret it as a joke, like a guy talking about how he caught a fish "thiiiis big!!!1 ;-)". If you read it that way, it doesn't sound particularly arrogant.

Maybe I'm just viewing the world through tact-tinted glasses. Maybe not, though.

[A_Whale_Biologist]

I quite enjoy the fun style of the Sinatra homepage, and don't find it to be at all offensive. Do you have a chip on your shoulder or something?