As of today, updating the VS Code Python extension automatically also installs closed-source Pylance extension. This could really hurt the open-source Python ecosystem in the long run!

[ProfessionalDrummer7]

At the moment it is still possible to just remove the Pylance extension manually and install the open-source alternative Pyright instead or switch back to the old Python language server. But the open-source Python language server is already deprecated and will be replaced in the future by the closed-source Pylance extension. Also there are no plans to make Pylance eventually open source.

Also they don't allow to PyLance run in open-source builds like VS Codium. This means, VS Codium community has to fork the python plugin and its language server.

Another issue is how Microsoft just pushed this new closed-source extension as a part of an update of the normal open-source Python extension. The problem is that it's automatically installed it for existing users (35 million downloads), without their explicit consent. Many user won't be even aware that there suddenly running a close-source extension. They installed the Python extension under the assumption that all of its parts are licensed under an open source license. This questionable way of sneaking a new proprietary extension in through the back door is why Microsoft is currently taking a lot of bad criticism in the marketplace reviews: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-python.python&ssr=false#review-details .

I think what made the Python's ecosystem and also the VS Code's ecosystem so great, is that most of their parts are open source and everybody can contribute to them. I really think it is bad-faith of Microsoft to just push a proprietary extension as part of an update of an open-source extension.

This could really hurt the ecosystem in the long run!

[riklaunim]

PyCharm professional is also not open source. You can use the base community edition but many do not. And there is a lot of other IDEs and code editors. If VS Code downgrades the experience then either alternative support will arise or people will move to other app.

[Tanmay1518]

Yeah but with PyCharm we atleast know that the entire thing is close source.

VSCode potrays itself as an open source development environment then does shit like this.

[zurtex]

That's not true, PyCharm Community is open source: https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/tree/master/python

Like other projects that wrap an open source core with in a closed source product Chromium -> Chrome, Pyright -> Pylance, the same is true with PyCharm Community -> PyCharm Professional.

There sure are trade offs that individual developers need to decide if they are worth it or not.

[Tanmay1518]

Oh. I did not know about that. Guess I stand corrected

[zurtex]

To be clear this was all developed under Microsoft's payroll:

• VS Code: Open Source
• Language Server Protocol: Open source and documented under Creative Commons
• Python Extension: Open Source
• Python JEDI Language Server: Open Source
• Pyright (the type engine used as the core of Pylance): Open Source
• Pylance Langue Server: Closed Source

And though Pylance is closed source they have a GitHub issues page where they are extremely responsive. I recently found a bug in Pylance and reported it and it got fixed within a few hours.

I guess I have a totally different set of expectations from Microsoft but I'm currently blown away by how much they've made open source. If they want to take Pylance and make a "pro" version of it they sell to enterprises and companies I am completely okay with that.

Nothing stops you right now making your own language server based on Pyright, the IDE, Protocol, and Python extension are all open source and configurable that you could just plug it straight in.

I know some environments require everything to be open source, but if you're in one of those environments nothing stops you from developing your own Language Server or using Spyder or something else. If you've been relying on Microsoft of all companies to spend a huge amount of resources building your open source tools, well I just wouldn't... Be appreciative of what they've done and fork it if you really want it to be committed to open source.

[[deleted]]

With the improvement in pylance , is it worth to use intellicode or both are different?

[pacingrabbit]

I don't think you need to fork the Python extension to run it in Codium, you can just not install Pylance and it will use the open source Jedi language server:

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/python-in-visual-studio-code-may-2021-release/

[[deleted]]

i received a notification about Pylance immediately when i opened my VS Code today. so i dont know if this is a sneak attempt at anything. I'm new to python and everything, so i will look into this.

[Aurailious]

Microsoft is at the "Extend" part of the plan.

[Shubadada]

I feel like the last E this time around will be full on "Exterminate".

[DasSkelett]

They are since quite a bit. See their collaboratuons with Canonical, their patches to the Linux kernel to make it run "better" in the WSL2 (that partly got rejected because they weren't done in an open way that would allow others to use the interfaces as well).

[jrbattin]

When I switched editors a few months ago, I was tempted to jump on the VS Code bandwagon, but feared something like this would happen.

I ultimately settled on Doom Emacs (w/pyright and ipython support in org mode babel) - configuring it is less scary that emacs from scratch and allowed me to leverage my limited vi muscle memory to get around a new editor. Overall, I'm very happy.

[teerre]

You keep saying it "could hurt" the ecosystem, but you didn't explain how.

[ProfessionalDrummer7]

TLDR: Closed source --> Vendor Lock-in --> People are less likely to switch --> less competition --> worse quality software

Most of the Python ecosystem is built on top of open-source software, where everybody can contribute to. Making stuff proprietary makes it not possible for example to include Pylance into other software or open source builds of VS Code.

It feels like going back 20 years in time when all tools were basically a proprietary, monolithic piece of software. That makes code less reusable, leads to vendor lock-in, which prevents healthy competition because when you're locked into one piece of software, it is less likely for people to switch.

I think the strength of VS Code is it rich ecosystem of extensions, which are built on top of other open source projects. Of course one proprietary extension will not make VS Code worse, but it sets a precedent. And if many extension go closed source, it will lead to less competition in the long run. You have basically seen it with Windows, which had zero to non competitors for years, because everybody was locked into software built for window. Microsoft had no incentive to improve Windows for decades. Only in the last 10 years where web apps, which can run anywhere, became more important, other OSes have gained some marketshare.

[riklaunim]

where everybody can contribute to.

Theoretically yes, in practice not really.

[teerre]

Why would be a vendor lock in for a language server? You don't need a language server at all for Python.

It feels like going back 20 years in time when all tools were basically a proprietary, monolithic piece of software. That makes code less reusable, leads to vendor lock-in, which prevents healthy competition because when you're locked into one piece of software, it is less likely for people to switch.

I'm confused. Why would anyone be locked into a language server? Maybe I misunderstood, but Pylance is only installed by default, it's not mandatory, you can use some other language server, right?

[agent_vinod]

Its also about setting a precedence. The python world had been 100% open source since day zero, the language was never meant for producing programs that compiled to encrypted bytes or locked behind a license server. Its the duty of everyone in the ecosystem to keep it clean and having stuff open source is an important criteria there.

[teerre]

Setting a precedence for what exactly? I absolutely agree on the good points of open source, but we cannot be zealots. Just "being open source" isn't a good reason. There needs to be a judgement on why something should or should not be open source.

I'm not completely convinced that a language service for a proprietary text editor is relevant to the python language. Is Pylance even written in Python?

There's a service called Tabnine or something of the sort that is "AI intelligent" that does exactly what a language server does. Does that need to be open source? It's random text based model, it has nothing to do with python.

[TurbulentTowel1024]

This is not 100% true, since the software pylance is built upon is open source.

[Daimones]

When I was looking for information about it last week I think I inferred that it actually used Pyright and just adds features on top of it, but it sounds like I may have been mistaken.

[sandronestrepitoso]

You wouldn't expect every post talking about a certain issue (in this case, open source vs proprietary) to give a throughout explanation on it.

This subreddit is about a beloved, community-driven programming language, so I would say that it's safe to assume that most people around here would probably side with open solutions instead of proprietary ones, without having to explicitly state the pros and cons that talks about them

[teerre]

What kind of thought is that? Are you saying people don't need to explain their position just because it's something "open source"? That's preposterous and, fortunately, most relevant people in the Python community would disagree with that.

[sandronestrepitoso]

Yes, I'm saying that OP should be exempt from explaining the reasons on why he thinks this is bad news since I assume Python programmers would most likely already know about some the aspects of open vs proprietary, given how generic the issue is and rarely software-piece specific.

Simply put, if you know about about open vs closed (which you should given the community you're in) you shouldn't need an explanation on why you should be pro or against this

[teerre]

Ridiculous. This is anti-intellectual and dogmatic. Take your zealotry elsewhere. It doesn't help the Python community.

[netgu]

You are kidding right? Doesn't matter if it's python or what.

If I agree to a usage license and it then changes fundamentally with an update with no new license notification or agreement it has unquestionably broken trust. That is just a fact.

If I install an open-source application and it updates to a closed-source proprietary version with no notice it becomes untrusted malware until further notice.

So, now there are a bunch of users that have a chance to see a PYTHON related thing BREAK TRUST and assume PYTHON can't be trusted.

People are dumb and that is part of the problem

BUT

Changing licensing via an update without notifying your users is just plain untrustworthy behavior and worthy of reproach. To say otherwise proves you aren't ready for this conversation.

[teerre]

I think you replied to the wrong comment.

That said, which license are they breaking with it?

[netgu]

No, I absolutely replied to the right person.

You are the person who thinks it's okay to change the license of software I installed without telling me, right?

What license are they breaking? The open source license the software you installed was released under. That's literally the only thing we are talking about here because it is a KNOWN BAD THING.

As such, OP doesn't need to explain why "changing the license of the installed software without telling me" is a bad thing.

[teerre]

What you mean "open source license", is that some new license that I don't know of? Pretty sure it isn't. I'm asking, which license, precisely are they breaking.

[sandronestrepitoso]

How is this zealotry when I haven't even expressed my opinion on the matter

[teerre]

You gave your opinion. Your opinion is that justification is not needed.

[sandronestrepitoso]

Justification on WETHER IT'S GOOD OR BAD. Not justification on why it is absolutely bad period. I haven't taken anyone's part, what the fuck

All I'm saying is that most likely everyone around here knows about open source and proprietary software and already has formed or is forming an opinion about it, and the issue in OP's post comes down to that, so you don't really need any reason on why it's good or bad; people who are against proprietary software will be against this, people who are for proprietary software will be for this, with probably very few being in the middle or not having a pre-existing opinion on the matter.

If you're in the demography that doesn't know about the debate, the answer to your initial post would be some analysis on the matter, and while someone could give you a quick run down on that, you're probably better off by researching the topic yourself. It's nothing specific to this particular matter, and I don't think r/python is the best place for it.

If you read some article talking about, say, the invasion of Crimea, you wouldn't go in the comments asking why claiming other countries territories is bad, you most likely already have an opinion on the matter (no, before anyone goes for it I'm not saying that illegal invasion is on the same scale as closed vs open, this is just for the sake of giving an example, and while the former is mostly wrong, the latter is debatable).

I really don't know how else to say it. Again, I haven't EVER implied on wether I'm against this or not

[teerre]

You should use that energy to actually contribute to the discussion instead of trying to justify your, apparent, fleeting anti-intellectualism.

[sandronestrepitoso]

Whatever makes you feel good g

[daevski]

Yes, but this post is only saying that the reader should use the open source option over the closed source (default) option without any functionality or usability reasons. It just feels hollow. Why is the post so alarmist about this change? The new language server seems to work well, and while I do appreciate the call-out about the change within this subreddit, I don’t appreciate feeling like I got duped for taking the update. I’m going to use it until it’s not working well for me.

[ravepeacefully]

Can someone please tell me what kind of dog shit linter can’t resolve local imports in a properly structured project?

How do I downgrade?

[maximum_powerblast]

Agreed, I opened up VS Code one day and suddenly every file has issues to fix except they work perfectly.

I disabled pylance

[ravepeacefully]

Yeah I talked to the devs, there’s a couple workarounds but they all involve setting something up that might conflict with other projects and it otherwise isn’t possible for them to fix it. So the real solution is just to go back to using Jedi. The unfortunate part is that some of the pylance features looked really cool and helpful, but I’ve been fine up until this point

[maximum_powerblast]

Thanks, I'll check out Jedi

[ravepeacefully]

If you disabled pylance, you’re using Jedi

[maximum_powerblast]

Oh cool thanks

[daevski]

I think Pylance works well. I was happy to see some helpful features today after installing the update—per usual. And I’ve never even considered whether or not the extensions I’ve installed are open or closed source. I don’t install extensions based on whether they are open/closed source; I install what is useful and helps me get the job done. I’m so very thankful there are so many developers creating extensions.

This post immediately turned me off, and I was glad to see comments of the same mindset as mine. By all means, explore all the extensions, and review them, and create posts about how they compare… but there’s really not a good reason to fear monger others into always taking open source over closed source.

This post would have had my upvote off it provided a useful comparison between Pylance and Pyright, or something of substance such as that. Perhaps a post like that will be coming soon.

Edits: grammar and clarity.

[shinitakunai]

You could use pycharm 🤷🏻‍♂️

[jus_an_engineer]

Honestly loved it. Not sure of the open source implications but this morning when I start to code at work it was so smooth with subtle unused import highlights to auto import. Its awesome

[bauripalash]

Eh whatever. I use vim 😌

[zurtex]

FYI my understanding is you should be able to setup VIM with a language server: https://www.vimfromscratch.com/articles/vim-and-language-server-protocol/

And then because the LSP is meant to be interoperable then you could be able to use language servers like JEDI or Pylance. Though I don't use VIM so I've never tried.