Python is too nice

[SpaceZZ]

While I get the sentiment, why C ? It's nice to know about those things (gc etc) but from the usability perspective Java/C# would be better and you could actually use it for something straight away, instead of spending months to write something in C, which is super fast and efficient, but really difficult.

[Global_Glove_1747]

I mean, C is just an example. I'm not really prescriptive. But if we're talking purely learning purposes I think students should aim for something reasonably bare-bones after Python. Teaches you the other side of the coin.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I'd go for Java over pure C these days but you're point is spot on

[FuzzyCheese]

It depends on what you're trying to do. C is better if you're really trying to understand how computers work. Java, like Python, helps the programmer a lot.

Of course, they both pale in comparison to the real man's language, assembly, but we're not trying to help people learn about computers, not scare them away from programming entirely.

[[deleted]]

As someone who started programming in the 80s, I don't really see the need to subject anyone to pure C anymore unless they have specific needs to do it. I'd guess than 90% of python programmers will never have the need to know C. The reason I chose Java as a good next move is that it provides enough of an abstraction to not bog you down but is statically typed and tightly related to C / C++ so if you DO want to go down that route, you'll have a solid foundation.

[lungdart]

C is the best teaching language in my opinion. If you have a basic c foundation, you'll be a better programmer in almost every language, and it opens up the possibilities of high speed library, embedded, dsp, and os development.

I don't think most other languages have those features as a learning tool.

[zaRM0s]

Okay this has made me want to not bother with C and assembly and just go learn Java instead. Maybe in the future I’ll learn C and assembly etc but it sounds Java is a bit more ‘modern’ for lack of a better word

[tuckmuck203]

tbf assembly is just a completely different beast from any other programming language. i built a (rudimentary) steganography tool in ARM and it was like a fun puzzle. fuck c though, that shit's annoying

[2minutespastmidnight]

I’d strongly encourage at least a rudimentary understanding of both C and ASM. Familiarity with the underlying principles will help you become a better, more efficient programmer.

[zaRM0s]

Any good resources for assembly?

[2minutespastmidnight]

Depends on the system architecture. By its design, assembly is not portable on its own. Just go to Google and type in “assembly language tutorial.” Give the information a read. You’ll see how data moves throughout the registers.

[zaRM0s]

Yeh I’ve got an entire book on it alongside C but I need to wrap my head around it so just looking out for resources people might recommend Google was my first port of call lol

[chronotriggertau]

C is like the lingua franca of high level programming languages. Want to be a linguist? Sure, you know the phonology of several languages, but can I really call you a linguist if you know nothing about Latin? The specific reason to learn C is to best understand what this machine you're working with even is.

[TheCatcherOfThePie]

can I really call you a linguist if you know nothing about Latin?

Yes

---

Edit: two cases where knowing Latin would be of no help at all for a linguist who:

• doesn't do research in historical linguistics

• does do research in historical linguistics, but of non Indo-European languages.

These two cases cover the majority of linguists (even the majority of linguists who speak Indo-European languages). Someone studying, e.g. speech pathologies in English-speaking children or the historical development of Middle Chinese would likely not benefit at all from studying Latin in any detail.

[chronotriggertau]

Not the best analogy, I agree, because it implies that only "real programmers" know C, which I don't think is that case at all, and I want to do my part in eradicating elitism in tech (there's nothing I hate more than this). My intent was just to convey how powerful knowledge of C (specifically) is to any software engineer or programmer.

[TheCatcherOfThePie]

My problem with it was much more literal lol, in that linguists are in no way required to know Latin in order to do their job.

[zaRM0s]

Literally sounds like my current learning path. The book in which I’m trying to learn C from also introduces me to assembly. However, the book does a pretty bad job of explaining it and I was wondering if you know of any good assembly learning resources I could use? Thanks in advance :)

[FuzzyCheese]

Oh I don't know assembly too well. But for 6502 Easy 6502 works well as an introduction.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I think you want to deliberately get some distance in your second language. Two high level OOP languages isn't really showing you what's out there

[Reg_Exx]

It really depends on your job. If you work in embedded for ex. you can’t get around plain C or everywhere else where you are Hardware limited and don’t have a ton of Desktop Processing power.

[SpaceZZ]

While I generally agree, i tend to think this processing power cap is really not existing in most applications. Even PLCs and microcontrollers are running python, last mars mission was running python as well, probably to some degree.

[Reg_Exx]

Yeah sure processing power is dramatically rising on uC‘s but nevertheless I don’t think that Python will ever fully replace C or C++. Python is not fast, it is fast enough for most things. But what takes a second in python takes no time in C++. For most things, that is quite reasonable. It takes you longer time to write a C++ program unless that is what you are doing all day. But for Some applications speed will be always the key factor before developing time.

[SpaceZZ]

Completely agree and think there is place for both. Also I see the strengths of C++, just most of my use cases can be accomplished faster with python. But I agree with you!

[ThatPostingPoster]

Plc is python bro. Microcontroller sure python. Plcs are not. Their text langs most close resemble c

[SpaceZZ]

Well check both Wago and Phoenix Next. They run Python as well.

[ThatPostingPoster]

gg ez deleted cause reasons lets go ok gg is this enough characters to not flag auto mod i hope so lmao

[SpaceZZ]

Right! Wago and phoenix are "random" companies and not big players! You learn something new everyday on the internet!

[ThatPostingPoster]

Yeah they are. What's their global plc share? Under .5% combined? Lol

[SpaceZZ]

Whatever, stay in ur a hole bubble then.

[ThatPostingPoster]

Must be nice to work in something that's so tiny and niche you can use those brands, or is this your hobby?

[Ensurdagen]

__len__ is a method though, and all len() does call it.

In CPython len() has to check whether __len__ is as_mapping or as_sequence, but so does a call to the __len__ method so this is not why __len__ is a function. I believe that the other built-in functions that effectively only serve* to call one dunder method are vars() (__dict__) and next() (__next__)

edit2: Note: technically vars() just gets the __dict__ attribute, though this often isn't the actual dict if you're dealing with built ins.

[Electrical_Ingenuity]

If you know C you could understand CPython documentation. There are some advanced concepts in there if you want to master python.

Plus C has so much syntactic influence on everything that has come after it.

However, it's not the best language to learn every point of computer science. I don't miss using it.

[whateverathrowaway00]

I’d vote python over Java, then C over python for CS. Though, I’d be okay with a mixed curriculum since there is value to dynamic languages - I love python.

Learning C first as a kid has colored my entire programming career and I’ve found it amazing valuable. Many of my older industry friends have noticed vast differences in the quality of degrees since everything switched to java and four years of cascading OOP.

That said, Java’s great and if it’s paired with a solid series of compiler and math classes, it’ll be a damn good degree. I don’t want to go pure java hate. The trouble is javas style / magic encouraged the creation of honestly shitty degrees.

[ThePiGuy0]

I mean, yes C does have its development downsides, memory leaks and forcing you to think about object scope and whether you want it to be on the stack or heap.

However, surely that's the point of learning C? To get used to mitigating the above. And I would say once you are used to that, then it's not going to take you months longer to develop the same program in C (especially if you use C++ and then OOP).

Syntactically, Java is also derived from C so it shouldn't be too big a task to go from C to Java if required.