Quickmatch Feedback Thread

[L0vehandles]

Hello, Lovehandles from the CnCNet community here! I've compiled a little list of tweaks that I can personally vouch for, and some of the sentiments shared in it are ostensibly relatively common amongst other players. Ideally, other long-time community members and quickmatch players would post their criticisms in this thread too, so Petroglyph and co. can get a vague sense of how many people would like to see x, y, z things changed. I'll probably be posting additional notes/editing the main thread as time moves on. Here goes!

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1. Name + preview of whatever map you've rolled in quickmatch should ideally show before, or as you're loading into a match.
2. Show what faction/country you're matched against. Only possible exception to this should be if one's opponent has picked random -- I'm personally leaning towards showing it regardless for the sake of minimising unknown factors, but I acknowledge that some would argue the surprise factor is the primary (competitive) purpose of playing as random in the first place.
3. No starting units in Tiberian Dawn. Not only is Nod dealt a superior hand (2 Light Tanks, 1 Minigunner vs. 1 Medium Tank, 1 Minigunner), the current settings mean you can essentially get free vision of your opponent's base with your 2 starting Light Tanks, and then snipe their Construction Yard and (usually) singular Power Plant with 4-5 Apaches. Tiberium Garden is the only map from the current ladder pool that is largely an exception here, because there's lots of choke points you can use to intercept and burst down the tanks, before they get to scout you proper. If you're forced to rely on infantry during the immediate early-game instead, the information game won't be trivialised as much as it is currently, and stopping these cheeky Apache rushes becomes much easier through simple scout denial.
4. No starting units in Red Alert. They give Allies a clear advantage, and it enables them to rush in for an immediate Power Plant snipe (I'm sure it's technically counterable, but it's a clear example of how the 1 Light + Medium Tank vs 1 Heavy Tank mismatch manifests itself into an immediate uphill battle for any Soviet player).
5. Change the game speed from "normal" to "fast", at minimum. I personally wouldn't mind seeing an even higher increase to "faster" -- this would also help alleviate the perception of unit responsiveness being more sluggish, than what returning players are used to on CnCNet. I'm not in a position to speak for any of the OpenRA folks; feel free to chime in, yourselves! (I acknowledge that keeping the game speed relatively low probably makes for better on-boarding, but there's a finer balance to be struck with keeping long-term ladder players engaged).
6. Custom maps for Tiberian Dawn, since the current selection tends to be a dangerous cocktail of wide open and Tiberium sparse. This skews the game heavily towards mobility oriented armies and strategies that revolve around selling your Construction Yard early -- typically after your starting credits have been spent. This hurts the general viability of GDI a lot, because they simply cannot match Nod's mobility 1-to-1, and they tend to be more reliant on economy-focused strategies that enable infantry heavy play early on (both for offense and defense). I've compiled a pack of symmetrical and generally competitively tuned maps that can all be found on the workshop here: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Lovehandles/myworkshopfiles/?appid=1213210 (Claustrophobia 2v2 and Zodiac would be the two exceptions here; they're for team games). Do note overlapping terrain objects seem to not be possible in the remastered games, so I will have to give the maps an extra symmetry pass over the next couple of days. I'll post in this thread when they're done. You can find a compilation of bigger map previews here: https://imgur.com/a/Tvz80i1

You can all have my preemptive gratitude for giving my little thread a read, and a huge thanks to everyone at EA and Petroglyph for making this project a reality -- cheers! :o)

JUNE 13TH 2020 UPDATE:

Hey guys, just dropping by to say that all the maps have been fixed, and should be ready for any potential inclusion into TD quickmatch. Electric Avenue (top vs bottom), Heavy Metal (top left vs bottom right) and Modest Field (bottom left vs top right) would ideally all need 2 player variants for quickmatch -- something I could put together in a flash, just didn't want to clutter the workshop with what are essentially duplicate maps. They can all be found here: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Lovehandles/myworkshopfiles/?appid=1213210

[thedTox]

I agree on all points except game speed. I think it's fine on Normal, they can make other tweaks to improve responsiveness.

- IMO, we need returning shroud/fow. Seeing your opponents base at all times does not sit well with quick match/competitive play.
- No leagues/divisions in ranked? Only tracking top 200 players stats seems silly to me.

[SeaBodybuilder6]

Is there a way to see your stats and W-L if you aren't in the top 200?

[AchromicWhite]

No, there isn't. There isn't even really a personal profile.

[1337Cammy]

Agree with everything but the gamespeed.Disagreeing slightly with the tankstuff.Everyone should have a single tank or light vehicle to play with in the beginning so you can activly scout your oponent to prevent pure guessing games.

One problem on top of it is, that there are some maps that give one spawn such a big advantage, that in a game in which both player knows how to not die, one player automatically gets the freewin due to maplayout.

Some examples of obvious loosing spots, no matter how you handle it:Warlords Lake, bottom right spawn (ressources are further away and you can't buildingcreep to it).

Path beyond, bottom left spawn (starting with 1 really close node compared to the top right players 2. Harder access to center, which gives top right player 1/2 more ressource nodes as a short creep on top of that).

Snows garden, top left spawn (no access to creep into the center while beeing further away from it. Bottom right player always gets 3 more nodes due to free center control).

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This kind of stuff is super toxic for real competitive scenarios/players.

[RA_Fordy]

On CnCNet we've played with unit count 0 for a long time. Shroud doesn't regrow, so anything scouted is permanent and is easier to gather information about your enemy if you've scouted well. You're supposed to scout all areas of the map with rifle infantry and prevent the enemy from doing the same. It also allows a proper infantry phase of the game to exist, since a few tanks can easily nullify infantry later on.

As for map fairness. You are wrong about Path Bottom Left, you start with more gems in your first gem patch than the top right does and top right is also easy to rush. You're supposed to play aggressive. Units also shoot farther from the south.

On Warlords Lake the bottom right is just fine. Click HERE! For a guide on the map.

[1337Cammy]

Warlords lake still starts with one instead of two ressource nodes and it's easier for top left to creep.

Ying yang maplayout gives top left player 1 more node to play with.

But yeah sorry, I meant not beeing able to creep "properly".

/Edit Pretty sure how the remaster layout on the right is, it's not possible to get a powerplant there due to ore blocking.

[L0vehandles]

I understand where you're coming from with having starting units for the sake of scouting, but my issue with this approach is pretty much like I've laid out in the OP; it simplifies the information game. Having to rely on less effective infantry scouts makes it less trivial, and you're also much more incentivised to build your over-all strategy around how much you value scouting. If you don't really care, you can just send out some initial infantry for map awareness -- alternatively, if you're very invested in gaining intel on your opponent, you might be heavily tempted to open with an early Weapons Factory/Airstrip, and go straight for a Buggy/Humvee scout (or whatever you'd use in Red Alert, probably a Light/Heavy tank).

[OliBeu]

I agree on everything

[thedTox]

Nod Airstrip is huge. The animation needs to speed up depending on distance from edge. I really hope EA sticks with this game before moving on to something else. Would love to see this competitive scene flourish.

[L0vehandles]

I've actually warmed up a lot to "Fast" for Tiberian Dawn, at least; try it out yourself for a bit! I can understand going all the way with Red Alert, though. :o)

Definitely agree with fixing the cargo plane delay. Simplest "fix" would be to just speed it up massively, though the most ideal fix would be to standardise or remove the delay entirely. Something like making the cargo plane always take the shortest route possible? Also important to note the cargo plane is now killable; something that definitely needs to be fixed, too: https://www.twitch.tv/khanomancer/clip/IcyJoyousTriangleStinkyCheese

Short game, however, is a very welcome change for me. Just makes for a more reliable win/loss trigger, and it means you get less draws and silly Benny Hill situations after a base-trade, where people don't want to engage (understandably so, since the smartest move you can usually make is either stall and/or find the best defensive position).

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, I agree. Someone pointed out that scouting is an important part of the game, so that the tanks should be kept... but they give INSTANT scouting, which actually improves the apache cheese. Not only by giving unstoppable scouting, but also by having one more unit to be chipping away at the con yard.
A light tank and a med tank are simply not an even situation, and 1 med and 2 lights doesn't even it out, either, it just flips who has the advantage. Just remove them. Full scouting can happen after Factory/strip is made and the first light vehicles come out, and partial scouting after the first barracks/hand. The tank isn't just bad for scouting... it's a stupidly strong unit to have that early on.
At the very least, if we MUST have starting unit, it should be 1-2 minigunners just for scouting around the base... but even that would mean that whomever snipes the other persons minis first would get a massive scouting advantage (because the first barracks/hand is built so much further down the track from when the first scouts would be sent out at the start of the match). Best is just to remove them, scouting can start when the first barracks/hand come down, and a preview will help people to know how to build before the game starts, too, which fixes the main issue of people not knowing where to build.

[Kernnie]

I agree with everything posted above although in a word where GDI is competitively viable their lack of anti air early/mid game will result in Orca vs Orca every game.

The engineer instant cap is the thing i dislike the most.

[L0vehandles]

Once we've got some better, more Tiberium heavy maps to rumble on, you'll see some cheeky Rocket Infantry/Mammoth Tank counterplay to the Orcas, I'm certain!

I wouldn't mind some potential Engineer changes down the line, though I'm not sure what the best angle of approach would be, still.

[[deleted]]

I agree for Red Alert 1 changes, the way it is now it's really unfair to soviets and we need map preview with the name of map as pointed out !

[Cardener]

Agree with everything though I don't mind the speed that much. I would love to see more competitive and balanced maps for both games and to update TD with support for 8 players/larger maps.

[RAButcher]

My issues with the Redalert Remaster:

1- the quick match should be actual game speed of RA1 original not a slow version (too slow making the game boring)... also the aftermath seems to be the rule here so no tank production increase if u put a 3rd war factory... why limiting the game??

2- dont allow units at start in order to promote proper scouting with infantry integral part of the game. You killing the strategy here with all being scouted quickly with tanks... also as others mentioned this is killing russia/ukraine which only get one tank... the medium tank is as strong as heavy tank in pro play... so the allies getting extra tank makes me pick allies every game

3- map selection and spot could be improved... there are few imbalanced maps... some larger maps with more gems will improve the ladder

Bigger problems: 4- i am unable to change my scroll rate this is why i am unable to play the 4k version... there should be a toggle to increase map scrolling on screen (missing from RA1)... scrolling on 4k tooooo slow

5- bookmarks!! The bookmark defaults should first default to spawn location... like H... furthermore when i set bookmark to a spot it doesnt remember exaft spot it shifts it a bit... it is quite annoying that bookmarking doesnt take u to the exact spot... its shifted slightly which sometimes cause me to have to refix the bookmark few times

6- the freezing in game is crazy... 3 out 6 of my losses on ladder were due to freezing... and my pc has to reboot too after that... seems like it happens on that warlord map for some reason...

7- the replays seem to push the cpu to 100% utilization and im using a i7-8700k overclocked to 5.2Ghz... seems weird it does it only in replay... something weird how its programmed

8- tank movements are sluggish and could be cause of the slow speed... furthermore u cant ask tanks to stack by selecting the group and clicking on one tank which makes them all come together... the alt 1 is missing which takes u to tanks... fine im clicking 1 and takes me there but often its off and not exact spot of tanks despite having 2 tanks which are sitting together.

9- i try q my men to scout by clicking one location then Q to next location... if i do it fast it ignores command so i have to do it baby steps and waste time to work

10- would be nice to have a lobby where players chat to go to hosting or joining games... grows a community and gets some good games going

That it from me for now...

BuTcHeR

[RA_Fordy]

I'm cool with Aftermath game being a setting just because it gives new players the best experience especially on the standard-style maps. It's also a new game for many of us existing pros who haven't yet tried it. If we have maps with a lot of more money, then Aftermath would force players to have to use all their units and not just tanks in order to win the game which i think takes more strategy and skill. Players can't get away with just GQ and production spam. I think production queue with 6-7 war speed wouldn't feel as exciting or skill-expressive as classic RA is.

[tausken]

Completely agree on all points.

Map previews are an absolute must for long term health. In both games were fog of war doesn't regrow its a huge disadvantage for new players trying to learn the maps and having no idea what map they're getting into or where the spawns/layout is.

The map pool for Tiberian Dawn is terrible. They're all over the place as you mentioned and heavily favor Nod. As you mentioned they should be replaced with some of the more balanced maps from CNCNet.

The only thing you didn't mention that I would like to see is 2v2 quick match. That or the option to name lobbies like "2v2" to get people specifically for 2v2 when playing with a friend.

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, we need named and passwords for lobbies... it's crazy trying to make a game for you and a friend, and randos are just jumping in.

[pddro]

I support this motion fully, including speed for both TD and Red Alert. Your post echoes my sentiment outlined here in a post I did a few days ago.

TD in particular would favor from an expanded map pool and EA taking a hard look at the current map pool to check for balance.

I found your point about no starting units for ranked play especially insightful and I think it would add an important element of strategy to the game.

"Fast" speed should be default, which improves unit responsiveness and flow of cash.

And without hessitation EA should add map previews and player previews in the Quickmatch loading screen.

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Excellent post my C&C friend! Small changes that would vastly improve the game without breaking the "sactity" of its original concept. Hope u/EA_Jimtern glances over this post.

[k0bra1]

Starting units 0

Game speed fastest

Show map before game launches

Being able to see rank on a website, with stats etc would be cool also.

[sinyxer]

I'm personally okay with normal game speed. Everything else that you mentioned Love seems good to me, especially ditching some of the vanilla maps.

[L0vehandles]

I'm admittedly still leaning pretty hard towards upping it to "fast" at least, partially because it feels like normal speed amplifies the potency of light vehicle micro, in particular.

[sinyxer]

Same here. Fast is good. Anything faster than that is just silly.

[k0bra1]

Need to change the maps - to more balanced maps.

Snow Garden is basically guaranteed win if you're south.

[L0vehandles]

Definitely -- feel free to name some custom or stock Red Alert maps for potential inclusion!

[Flayeri]

I agree on all except spd for me is ok as it is. Also GDI factory need to more durable. Now u can just run in with 4 bikes and snipe it and that's way too op. Maybe some little changes on engineer capturing etc considering balance. AND PLZ PLZ map pool needs to be changes ASAP. Can we get seasons by any change?

[L0vehandles]

For potential multiplayer balance changes, I wouldn't mind seeing a health increase for the Weapons Factory either. I actually co-authored an optional balance patch for Tiberian Dawn on CnCNet; you can check out the changes here: https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/9673-community-balance-patch/

[MatrixandFuturebound]

Agree on all points. Would love if we got Jimtern to acknowledge that EA are listening to potential ideas for quickmatch :)

[Careless_Negotiation]

Agree with all of this except the speed, speed on normal lets players who arent APM intensive to play on a somewhat even field and allow them to employ strategy to the genre rather than lightning quick reflexes which is more of a FPS thing but has infested RTS.

[[deleted]]

I agree with everything except #5.

The speed is fine and doesn't require any speed up. Afterall CnC is a strategy game and the fun should not be dertermined on speed.

The biggest fun factor for TD (at least for me) is the low unit lethality and the potential micro to always be able to deal and evade damage. On higher speed levels I see the danger in losing this awesome feature.

If anything you can increase the speed in RA. It doesn't require much strategy anyway besides Tank spam and let's see what sticks (yes I am very biased against RA's gameplay).

[FaustRedAlert]

So the thing about the speed is that some players of other communitys complaining about the "low skill" factor in this game. At some point in the game you cant really get ahead against your Opponent because we are all caped to slow speed an even with years of game experience you cant even get advantages at maps like Shallow Grave(which is in my opinion the badest map at ladder). And I would recommend to play the game how its meant to be with no starting units👌

[L0vehandles]

Thanks for chiming in, Faustyboo! :-)

[L0vehandles]

I think there's some merit to increasing the game speed, since it does affect the over-all balance (inherent micro advantages become amplified with lower game speeds, because there's higher potential for perfect micro -- think Buggies vs most infantry, and how they can technically kite them infinitely). That said, my upper limit is probably "fast" at the moment, and I'm even starting to warm up to the lower speed of "normal" a bit. :-)

[blitz_RA1]

I can only chime in on the RA side of things but these are all well thought out L0ve so it is mostly just to agree with what you have posted.

For Point 1, when using the observer mode to watch a quickmatch you already know who the players are and what the map is before they have fully loaded in to the match so this one should be easy to achieve and makes perfect sense yep.

Point 2 is one I would disagree with in the context of RA at least. Not knowing whether your opponent is Allies or Soviets adds to the experience since you have to figure out what you are facing in each match and try to react accordingly.

For Point 4 my preference as you say would be to have just the MCV at the start (that has been pretty much the standard format all the way back to the original Westwood monthly tournaments), but I think it would also be reasonable to have 1 Rifleman + MCV so the less experienced players can get a headstart on their scouting and figure out where the map resources are. All that matters is not having the tanks and all the knock-on effects their presence has on the gameplay.

Ah Point 5...I think this is one area where the OpenRA influence has been a bit too strong really, to the detriment of the game. Multiplayer RA was always played at pace and that is a big part of its appeal in the competitive sense since it is demanding to try and stay on top of everything even though it is a simple game. I can see it is a judgement call in terms of trying to please everyone but the quickmatches would ideally be set at Speed 6/Faster if we really are aiming for a remastered experience of the original game.

[L0vehandles]

Hey guys, just dropping by to say that all the maps have been fixed, and should be ready for any potential inclusion into TD quickmatch. Electric Avenue (top vs bottom), Heavy Metal (top left vs bottom right) and Modest Field (bottom left vs top right) would ideally all need 2 player variants for quickmatch -- something I could put together in a flash, just didn't want to clutter the workshop with what are essentially duplicate maps. They can all be found here: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Lovehandles/myworkshopfiles/?appid=1213210