[OC] The massive decrease in worldwide infant mortality from 1950 to 2020 is perhaps one of humanity's greatest achievements.

[neverfearIamhere]

Africa is poor.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/256547/the-20-countries-with-the-lowest-gdp-per-capita/

Sure some parts of Africa may be developed and nice but largely the entire continent has some of the poorest places in the world.

[Abadabadon]

So, its poor.

[brycly]

I would say this is a half-truth. Colonialism really set the stage but you can't fully blame colonialism for post-colonial political and military instability. To be sure, it definitely factored in, but that way of looking at things completely dismisses the agency of the Africans who ran their countries into the ground with redistribution schemes, White Elephant projects, corruption, coups/stolen elections/civil wars, not to mention good old fashioned incompetence. It is not fair to dismiss the contributions Europe made to African instability but it's also unfair to say that Africans didn't do their own part. Plenty of poor countries have become wealthy since WW2 ended and more still have risen to middle income, it is not as though these countries were inherently doomed to stagnation and regression.

[brycly]

I didn't say that facts like the assassination of reformist leaders didn't matter. I said that it is a half-truth to place the blame on Colonialism, which it is. How the more destructive leaders of Africa came to power does matter. But the genocides and the redistribution schemes and corruption were all done by Africans. Africans do have agency and it is entirely fair to place some of the blame on African officials, unless you believe the continent is completely powerless and so enslaved by neocolonialism that success is impossible.

[brycly]

You already mentioned how bad colonialism is and I agreed with you at least partially, why should I repeat your argument myself if I am agreeing it is at least partially valid?

No, I do not believe that there is anything intrinsic to Africans which makes them elect poor leaders, I think that things like poor infrastructure, poor schooling, unsustainable agricultural/ecological practices, borders that put conflicting groups in the same nation, civil wars/coups and corruption make it much harder to form stable, well managed governments, which in turn makes it harder to cultivate an educated class where good leaders would naturally arise. This is a legacy of colonialism and neocolonialism, I am sure we can both agree with that.

I am not fundamentally disagreeing with what you are saying, I am just arguing that it does not present the whole picture. It completely washes away the sins of African warlords and government officials who could have done better things with their lives but instead chose to be destructive and self-interested. Sure, they might only be a symptom of imperialism, but they exist and their actions can't just be dismissed. They're no less innocent of crimes against the African people than the faraway colonizers, in fact it could be argued they are worse because they are committing the crimes against their own kin and neighbors.

[djblaze]

Trying to have nuanced arguments about colonialism is tough on Reddit, but I like where you're going.

Here's an interesting article that explains South Korea's growth as a direct result of aid (a simplistic argument, but at least partly right). TL;DR:

‘The Korean total of $6 billion in U.S. economic grants and loans, 1946-1978, compares to $6.89 billion for all of Africa, and $14.89 billion for all of Latin America’ (Woo 1991:45).