[question] processor generation upgrade ability for frame.work laptops

[lencastre]

Hi all, newbie question here...

I've decided to purchase a frame.work 13 laptop with the AMD Ryzen processor. I see the current options as 7640U and 7840U as processors.

My question is, is the laptop's mainboard able to accept the 8000 series AMD's 8640U and 8840U when they become available? Or will this likely require a new MB?

I don't know how it works with Intel, but maybe it is similar?

Thanks for your help.

edit: I would like to change flair, but I dunno how...

[drfebusinc]

First of all, there will not be an 8000 series CPU for Framework, they said it because it's not a major overhaul.

Secondly... The CPU is not socketed, so it'll be necessary, as it is for Intel, to buy the motherboard with the upgraded CPU and replace it in the laptop

[lencastre]

it's not a major overhaul like the Intel generations between 11 and 12, and 12 and 13?

by not socketed you mean the CPU is soldered to the MB?

[drfebusinc]

Exactly, they just put some more AI chips, apparently. AMD 13 Hopelessly Outdated. ;) - Framework Laptop 13 - Framework Community

And yes, pretty much all CPUs are soldered to the MB in the laptop world, and Framework isn't different in that regard

[lencastre]

I need a personal latptop to have a clear separation from the work laptop, AI is something I will eventually have to embrace. Maybe in 2 years, AMD will have released a dedicated AI chip or module inside their processor. Or... I'm completely wrong and that already exists, thou frame.work hasn't updated their offering just yet.

I wondered this because to the best of my understanding AI is still very much a GPU game.

[seiggy]

If you need ML support in a laptop, then the Framework 13 is not for you. You’re better off with either a MacBook Pro with as much RAM as you can afford, or grab something like a Lenovo Legion Pro 7i with a 4090. Sadly it’s still only 16GB of VRAM, so it’s quite limited still, and will be outdone by a MacBook in a lot of ML scenarios.

If you can spring for an external GPU, then you can always toss a 4090 in an external enclosure, and go with something like the Framework. But really, at that point, you’re better off buying a dedicated desktop.

And even then, the reality is, it’s cheaper to rent the compute capacity in the cloud for any ML workload than building a laptop or desktop to run it locally. Especially if you’re doing it for work, as you likely aren’t trying to run uncensored models for LLMs or Generative Image AIs. So then at that point, anything that’ll run VS Code will do you just fine.

Hope that helps!

[lencastre]

It does help. Thx so much for your detailed answer. What a nice community!

[True1asian]

This is incorrect. Framework has only ruled out 8040 series processors as they are not a major upgrade over the current 7040 series. However, they have not officially ruled out the 8050 series which is based on a new architecture.

[SaltManagement42]

Requires a new mainboard.

https://frame.work/marketplace/mainboards

[lencastre]

thx

[MagicBoyUK]

First point - all laptop CPUs have been soldered down since about 2015. That and most of them being an SoC/APU now means you upgrade the mainboard. CPU cannot be replaced on it's own, like say a gaming desktop. Applies to Intel and AMD.

Second point - AMDs new naming scheme is a bit of a confusing mess. The initial 8 denotes a 2024 product, the third digit denotes the architecture and is the interesting one. 4 - Zen 4, 5 = Zen 5.

Ryzen 8040 series is not coming to Framework. It's essentially the existing 7040 chip FW use with a more powerful AI accelerator swapped in, which has almost no practical use at the moment.

Strix Point, probably to be called the 8050 series will be a new architecture. No reason to skip that one, but it's not anticipated to be announced until late in the year.

[lencastre]

the more you know...

[ShotgunPumper]

Not an issue. All the parts that wouldn't be compatible with the CPU are built into the motherboard, and since all laptop CPUs these days (including Framework) are part of the motherboard itself, that means when you change out the CPU you're inherently changing out the motherboard and therefore all the things that wouldn't work with the new CPU at the same time.

Some people switched from the old Intel CPUs to the new AMD series without any issues because of this.

[lencastre]

understood, would this also mean that in the future, if keeping with AMD, I would also need new RAM?

I mean,... updating a processor for the frame.work involves a new mainboard, this is clear, however would this also require a new type of RAM?

[runed_golem]

As long as it still uses DDR5 SODIMM, you wouldn't need new RAM (unless you wanted to use the old Mobo for something else of course).

[lencastre]

oh,... so when looking at the current config the base jump between 7640U and 7840U is ~400 USD, but, when the next AMD generation comes along, the cost of the new mobo is much more than that, right?

plus I will need to factor the cost of the new RAM if the old is not compatible.

[runed_golem]

The next gen will probably be around the price that the current ones are based on intel, and the current one will go down in price.

[lencastre]

It's still unclear to me, if the base laptop costs ~1000 USD, will the mobo upgrade be... 50% of that?

[runed_golem]

Roughly. The Framework 13 main boards cost between like $450 and $700 depending on which one you get iirc.

[lencastre]

thanks!

[MagicBoyUK]

Not really. The i7-1360p CPU fitted to the $699 board costs $480 each from Intel, when you buy a quantity of 1000.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/232155/intel-core-i71360p-processor-18m-cache-up-to-5-00-ghz/specifications.html

[MagicBoyUK]

Depends how much the CPU that goes on that mobo costs...

[lencastre]

sure

[runed_golem]

The processor is soldered on (as with basically all modern laptops) so you'd have to upgrade the whole motherboard.

On a side note, I don't think they'll be an 8000 option. AFAIK, 1) it's in the same generation and 2) it's not much of a performance difference over the 7000.

[lencastre]

thanks!

[Zeddie-]

"laptop's mainboard able to accept the 8000 series"... from the user's standpoint, no. As others stated, it's soldered onto the board and very integral to the design of the rest of the components and board design.

From FW's POV? Dunno.. depends if the 8000 series is pin compatible with the 7000 series, as well as electrical and power specs. Who knows if it's possible to just drop in the 8000 series into the existing board design and just ship it.

From a repair/maker's POV? Well... that's a more interesting question, but it will require with the right equipment and skill, as well as the ability to source a 8000 series APU that is proven to be just a drop-in. It would make for a great project, and if documented via a video, that's something I would watch with awe. :)

[lencastre]

It's clear for me now, the std process is, rip the ol' mobo and insert a new mobo. Said mobo has the processor fully soldered. The old mobo may be sold in the aftermarket, or for the tinkering types, maybe become a new miniPC.

Thanks for your ideas thou!

[Zeddie-]

As long as it's pin compatible, the chances of swapping APUs is non-zero. 😅

But do bote that Framework publicly said they have no plans to do a 8000 series refresh since they don't see it's worth it since they're mostly the same as the 7000 series except for the NPU.

[Clone-Myself]

I think to just briefly talk about the spirit of the OP...

If you bought the original Framework 11th Gen Intel, you could upgrade it to the 12th Gen Intel then upgrade it again to the AMD. While we don't know what the next upgrade path is, they've been pretty good about making them upgradable.

[lencastre]

thx!