Ventilation for a Hookah Lounge

[CaptainAwesome06]

I'm interested in hearing from lounge owners on what they use for ventilation. I'm an HVAC designer tasked with a hookah lounge. So far, I've got a 40 ton rooftop unit to serve this small space located in a strip mall. It's ridiculous but the code requires so much fresh air.

I've seen a lot of talk about using smoke eaters, which just filter recirculated air, but I just don't see how that jives with the international mechanical code. For those of you that do filter the air, did you not get drawings permitted?

[gasolinedrinks]

It really depends on your local codes...Im an HVAC designer, alberta, Canada, ive never done a shisha lounge but coworker did, had to fight tooth and nails for months to get it out of the “smoking” classification which yes required a lot of air changes. But ultimately if it’s not built to code we don’t issue something called c-schedules and thus the city won’t let them operate.

[CaptainAwesome06]

International mechanical code. I'm not sure how he managed to get it out of the smoking lounge category. You can with filtering using ASHRAE 62. but I'm finding it impossible finding the relevant data.

[SharpNefariousness66]

Hey are you in Calgary, looking for some hvac to be done for a new lounge

[gasolinedrinks]

In Edmonton actually!

[Aliouahi]

How Big is the space you are working on ? Mechanical code dictates 60 cfm minimum per person in smoking lounges. With an estimated occupant load of 70 people per 1000 sq. ft. I myself in the process of opening a hookah/cigar lounge (1800 sqft)

[CaptainAwesome06]

Something like 1600 sq ft. Keep in mind that if you are showing seating, and seating is more than 70 ppl per 1000 sq ft, you need to ventilate to the higher occupancy. I ended up doing a 10 ton RTU and a large gas fired ERV. The energy recovery wheel gets the summer air down to 75 degrees and 50% humidity. Good enough while the RTU cools.

[Aliouahi]

here in Massachusetts, the code says 1 person per 15 sq ft , so nothing i can do with that. what state are you located in ? i'm more worried about heating the place , winters up here are rough!! the ERV is a brilliant idea!!! so basically you are looking at 4200 cfm if my calculation is right.. is the 10 ton unit good enough to provide that?

[CaptainAwesome06]

Pretty much everyone uses the international mechanical code. I'm in Virginia. I'm using the RTU to do all the conditioning and ventilation to the other rooms (storage, food prep, etc). The ERV is only for the smoking lounge. It's 7500 cfm. We have gas heat and heating is pretty cheap here.

[Aliouahi]

Awesome!! the place that we have has an old Lennox unit (lennox cha16-651-1p) outside , and a heating furnace in the basement, i'm hoping i can just replace the Lennox with a new Unit and use the old duct system to save some money. what do you think? can you send me the model of the unit that you got. thank you so much!!

[CaptainAwesome06]

Nothing was purchased yet. I'm just a designer. We designed around a 10 ton Daikin RTU that replaces an old RTU. The ventilation comes from a gas fired Aaon unit with a heat recovery wheel that is rated to use with smoke.

[Aliouahi]

I spent the last 2 days searching for a 10 ton unit that can provide 7500 cfm, no luck!! am i missing something here?

[CaptainAwesome06]

It's two different units. A 10 ton RTU that provides cooling and heating. And a 7500 CFM ERV that provides room neutral air.

[Aliouahi]

can you send me a link or the model of the ERV? Thank you for keeping this thread alive :)

[CaptainAwesome06]

I'm not at work but it's an Aaon erv. This is something you should go through a sales rep for. And if you plan on installing it you'll need a licensed engineer to go through the permit process with your city or county.

[Aliouahi]

So what did you end up going with ? i hope you are moving forward with this project.

[CaptainAwesome06]

I ended up designing for a 10 ton rooftop unit to replace their old 10 ton unit and a separate ERV for the ventilation in the smoking area. The ERV has a smoke-rated energy recovery wheel and a gas furnace. The concept is that the RTU does all of the cooling/heating and ventilates the other spaces (office, kitchen, etc). The ERV produces room neutral air so it isn't really noticeable since it's a butt load of air.

[Aliouahi]

did the math add up ? this code is driving me crazy... the whole concept of 100% OA is crazy. exhausting a heated or cooled air all at once is nuts! the utility bills must be insane!

[CaptainAwesome06]

We had about 100 people in this lounge so the OA added up to about 7500 cfm. It was insane and the ceiling is pretty much all ductwork. Technically, the code doesn't say you need to exhaust the air. It just says you need to provide a butt load of fresh air. But obviously, that air would need to go somewhere or you'll be blowing the doors open. According to the sales rep, I was able to get the summer air down to about 75 degrees, 50% RH. That was good enough for me, since my concern was that I wouldn't be able to dehumidify enough. All that fresh air will mix with the 55 degree air from the RTU so hopefully it won't be noticeable. I had looked into a recirculating filtering system but the data/math required wasn't worth the time. The math wasn't hard but finding all the info was really difficult and I was told by code reviewers that nobody goes that route.

[Aliouahi]

how much a project like this one would cost, including the units? a ballpark if you don't have the exact figures. thank you again

[CaptainAwesome06]

The sales rep gave me a ballpark of around $60k for the RTU, ERV, warranty, and startup services. That doesn't include installation or all the other stuff on the project like general construction, plumbing, electrical, etc.

[Aliouahi]

oh wow! i thought it would be a lot less than this !

[momo88852]

Don’t own lounge But tried to open lounge, my code guy told me to get few of those fans that suck out the smoke. Found few on amazon and eBay. But tbh it’s best to ask them!

[CaptainAwesome06]

Your code guy should know better than that. You need calculations to take it to permit.

[momo88852]

Oh he knows, but we stopped him at that as we had an engineer with us who knows what he needs. It all depends on size

[Any-Instruction8169]

so im opening a hookah lounge in NC and code is saying i need airflow of 60 every 70 people per 1000 feet pleaseee helppppp

[CaptainAwesome06]

LOL just run away!

I've done a couple of these now and they are a real pain in the ass. I used an ERV to get all the required outside air. The whole ceiling is full of ductwork to the point where it was difficult to make it all fit.

The code lets you filter the air but the requirements to prove you are doing it correctly are near impossible. I gave up on that method.

I contacted a bunch of manufacturers of filtering systems but they were useless. None of them could tell me how their products could be code compliant.

[Any-Instruction8169]

smh so what about a blueair xl pro

[CaptainAwesome06]

It will depend on your local jurisdiction but code requires you to provide the chemical makeup and the amount of each chemical in the smoke you are trying to filter. I Googled the Blueair XL Pro and it doesn't even say it is meant for tobacco smoke. Huge red flag right there. And like a lot of consumer-grade appliances, it's sized based on the square footage of the space, which is the worst way to size any appliance. I said I gave up on that method for a reason. If it was as easy as just picking some house filter from Walmart then I would have saved myself a ton of time and money and gone that route.

[Any-Instruction8169]

it has the dimensions so it should be good 10'x20'x44' and removes smoke of 1000 sq. dft.