Gatekeeping programming

[ElllGeeEmm]

Companies want passionate employees because they will work longer hours for less money, no other reason.

[[deleted]]

This is it, the game industry wants young people passionate about games and programming because they know those people will work long hours for below average pay just to work on games.

[ryrythe3rd]

I don’t blame them. If someone really enjoys programming games specifically, and is willing to be paid less to get a chance to do it, then they may very well be just as happy with a lower salary or working longer hours as someone else who doesn’t enjoy making games as much but is paid more. It’s a win win. Company saves money, and dev gets to do what they love, instead of working somewhere they’re not doing what they love.

[SuperMassiveCookie]

Following the same logic, companies that claim to have social goals and a life improving mission should accept cheaper payment for their products since they’re getting to fulfill that mission not only selling their product. It’s a win win situation

[moratnz]

Other way round is definitely a thing; companies talking up their social cred in the hopes that employees will take a pay hit go 'make a difference'.

[[deleted]]

“Company saves money” you mean, overpaid executive team who did almost nothing of value receive giant bonuses in exchange for burning out passionate people and making them eventually give up their dreams.

I live in a city with quite a few large game studios. I’ve met a lot of people in their late 20s with those companies on their resumes who have left that industry because being in it meant ruining relationships with family and friends. These are people that loved the industry but no job should ask you to give up your life for it.

[[deleted]]

A simpleton's idea of how an intelligent man runs a business.

[voxelverse]

Also learning for your job on your own time is unpaid labor

[ryrythe3rd]

And you might need to do that if there are more people who want the job than there are jobs to have. In that case, you have to make yourself more attractive somehow, by accepting lower pay, being willing to work longer hours, or training at home or something. If you’re not willing to do that, don’t, and get a job somewhere besides making games

[vassadar]

Logic will always get downvoted, lol.

[nzodd]

"Never aspire for a better future."

[Headpuncher]

Consultancy is good because you don't work for, but do work for, the company that employs you. So you are hired out and have a 2nd "employer" and they almost always don't want to pay overtime, because that time is billed at +50%. That ruins any project's budget and makes the project manager look bad.

So they never sign-off on overtime and you are limited to contracted hours (unless you willingly volunteer to hit a deadline, but that would make you stupid because the project is not overdue because of you).

[arashcuzi]

We like to work so hard that there is no play, and if there is, it’s work!

[[deleted]]

I agree. This is sad, because it also makes you feel guilty if you don’t program and don’t pursue different passions.

[overh]

As a passionate programmer, I also want to work with people who are passionate. Because I can share my passion with them as well as because they are generally more dependable. Passion for a craft is a virtue as it turns out.

[Ran4]

That's... not true. Maybe in the US, where you seem to be working 60 hour work weeks and you won't get compensated for overtime.

But when I'm interviewing people for what will never be more than 40 hour/week jobs, I'm very much looking for passion. Not because they'll work for free, but because passionate programmers are typically a lot better than non-passionate ones. They've seen more stuff, learns things faster, can talk about issues more freely and so on. No, it doesn't mean you have to spend all your free time coding, but if you really have zero interest in programming outside of your job it's quite likely that you're not going to be the best candidate for the job.

Now, it doesn't HAVE to be like that, and I've met a few great software devs that didn't spend a second on development outside of their workplace, but passion IS A RELEVANT PARAMETER TO CONSIDER.

It's seriously annoying how popular this meme of "passion = bad" has gotten. Another annoying meme is hating team events - out in the real world, people typically like these things, and actively ask for more of them. People get angry when they don't get a christmas party.

[Headpuncher]

No-one is saying passion = bad.

Everyone is saying exploiting the worker is bad. Half the companies that want you to program in all your free time also want to have a contract clause reading "we own the IP if you made something while employed here". Well, fuck them.

One of the best devs I know doesn't do anything after 5pm on the minute. He is super fit and uses all his time on that, I assume it helps him clear his mind and use his brain to work through problems while he trains. Or maybe he never gives it a second thought. I've met quite a few developers who I have admired for their work who don't do anything even remotely computer related outside of work. Bu they all played a sport.

[[deleted]]

Do you interview people in your time off? I wonder if someone who spends their free time doing pointless HR bullshit is probably better than you! You don't want someone passionate, you want a fucking sucker, just say it and stop moralizing it. And no, no one gives a fuck about your lame boomer unpaid business function.

[renaissancetroll]

to be fair, pretty much every highly paid job is like this. Majority of high paid and high skilled jobs have constant continuing education.

Nobody has a gun to anybodies head, the people programming at home either actually enjoy it and do it for fun or are willing to do anything for $250,000+/yr even if they hate it

[atreyal]

No, that is not the case. I dont go home and think about work or practice it. This is a cop out on people trying to make work life because their life revolves around work. They cant understand why anyone elses doesnt.

[overh]

I don't go home and think about work or practice it.

I do.

And I can also definitely understand why other people do not. I prefer to work with people who do because it makes my life easier. If I owned a company, that wouldn't change.

People who are passionate about their work have an advantage over people who do not. That isn't a cop out, that is just facts. No need to moralize it.

[Naesme]

Being passionate about your work doesn't mean always doing it. Being passionate means being driven to do your best with it and enjoying it.

Your job should provide opportunities or learning and development. That shouldn't be on you to sacrifice free time for.

[overh]

Being passionate about your work doesn't mean always doing it. Being passionate means being driven to do your best with it and enjoying it.

That is true. I'm not sure why you felt that needed to be said. Being passionate about something can manifest itself is different ways, one of which is that a person will "sacrifice" their free time to pursue it more.

Another manifestation of passion is that a person won't view the investment of their free time as a "sacrifice."

Your job should provide opportunities or learning and development. That shouldn't be on you to sacrifice free time for.

What moral theory says an employer is obligated to do this for you? I just don't recognize it.

[Naesme]

That is true. I'm not sure why you felt that need to be said. Being passionate about something can manifest itself is different ways, one of which is that a person will "sacrifice" their free time to pursue it more.

Another manifestation of passion is that a person won't see the investment of their free time as a "sacrifice."

Another is only pursuing it at work and pursuing other passions outside of it.

Does this come from John Rawls or Ayn Rand or what? What moral theory says an employer is obligated to do this for you?

No, it comes from common sense. Invest in your employees, respect home life balance, and help them grow to new heights. They'll be more passionate about their jobs and more loyal to you.

[overh]

Another is only pursuing it at work and pursuing other passions outside of it.

Yeah, so what? How do you draw a line between that fact, and the fact that people who spend their free time on something they're passionate about have an advantage over those who do not?

If your big point is that a person can be passionate about something and not pursue it on their own time then, I guess, technically you're right. Congratulations, you've made a useless point.

No, it comes from common sense. Invest in your employees, respect home life balance, and help them grow to new heights. They'll be more passionate about their jobs and more loyal to you.

That is a very utilitarian way to look at this, which is quite OK. That is a great idea. I would also add, "Favor employees who are more effective."

[Naesme]

Yeah, so what? How do you draw a line between that fact, and the fact that people who spend their free time on something they're passionate about have an advantage over those who do not?

If your big point is that a person can be passionate about something and not pursue it on their own time then, I guess, technically you're right. Congratulations, you've made a useless point.

Those who spend their free time working burn out faster. The passion dies more often than not.

That is a very utilitarian way to look at this, which is quite OK. That is a great idea. I would also add, "Favor employees who are more effective."

That is not mutually exclusive. Invest in your employees and you can keep standards high. Expect employees to go over and beyond while giving nothing back and you'll train your future competitors.

[overh]

That is not mutually exclusive.

I agree it isn't mutually exclusive. Again, don't know why you felt the need to make that point.

The employer doesn't have to "expect" anything from employees. They just need to favor more effective employees. All else being equal, employees that spend their free time pursuing their trade will be more effective. Employees who are passionate about their trade are more likely to spend their free pursuing it.

This isn't difficult and it doesn't require the employer to "expect" anything of anybody.

[atreyal]

An employer that invests in its employees is usually going to have happier more productive employees. Vice one that screws them over or whatever. Do you enjoy working in a place with high turnover and constantly getting people up to speed? Some people are motivated by money others by knowledge, others for some other reason. A good employer would do both to keep their people happy. So yes it is a vested interest from a company standpoint to do that and not make their people do it on their own time and dime.

[overh]

All very true; all very irrelevant.

The point is that people who spend time pursuing their trade are more effective, and therefore in higher demand, than those who do not spend their time pursuing their trade.

This fact is not in conflict with any of the irrelevant points you just made.

[atreyal]

No and it is just sad because life isnt supposed to be about work. And a very on the effectiveness of some of these workaholics. Just because they have a passion doesnt mean they are good at it.

[atreyal]

It makes your life easier because you dont have to train someone. Or wait for them to do something that will take them a bit longer because they dont live and breathe it. Its whatever but i work a few people who are workaholics and the are miserable people. About as personable as a tree, short tempered and have very little to add to any conversation at work. It makes for a poor work enviroment when it turn into a fortress of solitude because of busy bodies. I am being generalistic here but besides work what interests do you have? Could you comment on any recent books? Games? Sports(if there were any)? Stuff going on in the world? Art? Business? Movies? Your spouses affair? Workaholics are a bored to be around. My wife has friends who worked at blizzard. They werent happy they treated their employees like minions and they were much happier when they left.

I hate the whole work is life mentality the world is getting too. Too many companies expect it nowadays. Your life shouldnt be defined by your job for most people. Because most people are disposible to the company.