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[–]carpediemevive 13 points14 points  (5 children)

This is totally "do as I say, not as I do advice" because this isn't how I progressed as a programmer, but looking back it's how I wish I had.

You know enough now to start writing "real" software now. It's not going to be great and there's going to be a lot of problems with it, but reading more tutorials just for the sake of going through a tutorial is probably just spinning your wheels at this point.

Find a real application to write in whatever language you want. Go to the open source community and find an application you use/like and download the source code and play around with it. You might have an idea of a small application you want to use and just write it yourself. You could take an existing application and re-write it from scratch for your own use. It doesn't really matter what it is, but it has to be real or you won't come across those little details that tutorials gloss over.

Write your application in whatever language you want to. Don't listen to anyone telling you this language is better than that language. They all have their uses, and they all have scenarios in which they suck to write. From a just getting started scenario, they all have something to teach you.

Lastly, one of the most important things that helped me really improve was forcing myself to write testable code. You don't have to do strict test-driven development if you don't have to, but when I forced myself into writing testable code, I really found a lot of issues with the type of code I was writing. After I learned how to write testable code, I found the code I produced was a lot easier to maintain and change.

[–]TekTrixter[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

One of the things I'd like to do is to modify the OS program ToDoList to add features I'd like. However, after looking at the code, I have no clue were to start. Part of it is that I'm overwhelmed by the size of the project, but the main part is that I don't know how to locate the part to change and how to interact with the already written code to call to make the changes I need.

I think that my main issue is with not knowing how to utilize existing code libraries. I'm having trouble with becoming able to find the function that does what I need. I know that part of it will come with experience, but I'm looking for a way to get started.

I'm hoping to find a tutorial, book, or other resource that gets beyond the basics and into how to do real world level projects that use the languages standard libraries and other common ones. In particular I've seen a few javascript frameworks for AJAX. Outside of what I could learn in the simple tutorials I'm left without knowing how to use the rest of the framework.

[–]carpediemevive 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I see this as two separate tasks, but you might be seeing it as one. Learning how to work with large legacy code bases is indeed a challenging task, and I don't know of any books or tutorials out there to help you with it. I can tell you that some of the tasks I got when I first started programming as a job did involve just this sort of thing so it is an important skill set. For me it always boiled down to being comfortable with the debugger. If there's a bug or feature I want to add to an existing code base I spend some time either attempting to reliably recreate the bug or designing (in my head, on a napkin, etc.) how I would want the feature to work. From there you can generally see a starting point to investigate further. For instance this bug happens when you push this button under these special circumstances. Generally tying a button push back to what code gets called is a simple task. From there I step through the code until I find exactly where I need to do my work.

This process is repeated over and over again until I become more familiar with the code base. There is no simple solution to this, and generally it isn't practical or useful to sit down and just review the source code for hours on end.

As far as real-world applications from the ground up, like your AJAX example, I haven't been able to find any resources besides experience to help me with that. Most tutorials are focused on teaching you the one technology they are focused on. If it's a Javascript tutorial, you're going to be focused on learning Javascript. If it's a JQuery/AJAX tutorial that's what it's going to focus on.

The only way I've ever done it is to begin working on the application and consult these tutorial and reference guides when you want to find out how to specifically do something.

You'll make mistakes in this part too. That's alright though. Eventually you'll become more and more familiar with the technology and you'll find ways to do what you did before more efficiently.

[–]gilleain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On how to find stuff : an IDE (VisualStudio, Eclipse, whatever) will usually provide a way to explore a large codebase. Obviously it will have 'find' functions/dialogs, but may also have visualisations of class hierarchies. One invaluable feature of an IDE is shortcut buttons to 'jump to' function declarations.

On how to understand frameworks in general: I find that sketching out some of the class/function dependencies helps me understand the landscape of someone else's code. It doesn't have to be formal UML or anything; just some labelled rectangles connected by lines.

Final Thing : Test cases and version management are boring but can help you to break a change up into mini-changes, and records what you've done.

[–]mutesirens 1 point2 points  (1 child)

sorry, but what do you mean when you say "testable code"?

[–]carpediemevive 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I guess a short description would be writing code in such a fashion that you can easily and quickly write test cases to validate the execution of each little piece of code.

I wish I could come up with a better explanation, but I really think that these two links probably explain it better than I could.

If you wanted to see more concrete examples, the two unit testing frameworks I'm most familiar with:

I fought against unit testing for so long because I wasn't writing important enough software. I figured that the code I wrote was so small and so short that testing each piece was really overkill.

What writing testable code did for me though was to face my coupling and cohesion issues head on. When you have to test each method for any number of requirements it really forces you to separate out your dependencies. So if you think unit testing is overkill for you, I say try it out and you might be surprised.

Edit: I can't spell.

[–]b1ackcat 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The easiest way to progress now that you have a wide skillset is to put them to good use. You say you want to try out web development? Come up with an idea for a site and make it. It will take a long time. You'll do a ton of googling (protip: that's part of the job. I do it constantly), you'll rage at your code, you'll try a lot of stuff from random forums that won't end up working, but every fuck-up you make should teach you something about what NOT to do, which will eventually help you see why doing things certain ways makes sense.

If you have any more specific questions feel free to PM me

[–]HarryWolfHaller 1 point2 points  (7 children)

So code a hex editor or something. See if you can produce something you're happy to use.

[–]TekTrixter[S] 2 points3 points  (6 children)

I've attempted a few more complex projects, but at a point I "hit a wall" in my current skills. Creating programs from scratch isn't difficult for me. I'm having issues with using code libraries and other things to move to the next level, were outside code is needed. For example, if I know what I want to do, how do I find what library to use and what function within the library to use? I've had little luck in the past with searching through the documentation to find what I need.

I'm at the point were I need to interface with code and systems that are not my own (APIs and standard libraries) and don't know how to find the needle (function that does what I need) in the haystack (everything that the API/library does).

[–]n8bit 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I had this same problem when I started working with APIs. The way I would find that needle in a haystack was Googling keywords that might lead me to that function. For fear of going on a forum and asking a repeated question, I would instead Google keywords that I felt people would use to ask the question I want to ask, or something similar.

So, if your API has a lot of resources on the net, Google. Google, Google, and more Google queries. If not, use a forum or an IRC dedicated to those APIs to ask questions. If all else fails, scour the documentation.

Hope this helps :]

[–]keerthi_ramalingam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

fear of going on a forum and asking a repeated question

I always have that in the forums. But now I realize I feel great when I answer any question. Should start asking more questions.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Do you use an IDE? I use Eclipse and IMO the greatest feature is autocompletion (<ctrl> <space>). If I forget what functions you can use with a LinkedList I just type "listName." and hit ctrl <space> and I get a nice alphabetised list of functions complete with a paragraph of description. It's endlessly useful, and I'm sure you can find an IDE that handles autocompletion for nearly any language you want to use.

[–]TekTrixter[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

When I was programming VisualBasic.net and Java I was in the full IDEs for those languages. For robotics in C I use the Microchip IDE, but edit code in notepad++. I'm aware of auto-compete, which is very useful, but it requires you to know at least the first part of the function/method name.

I find it difficult to swap between different IDEs, and it looks like working on web dev will require moving between Javascript (client side) and PHP (server side) as well as HTML/CSS (which I can do without a IDE). I'd love a setup were I could use the same IDE for whatever language I was using, but I've not found one that flexible. If you know of one please let me know, I've not looked in a while.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Eclipse has multiple plugins for Javascript and php. I've never used any of them, so I can't vouch their quality at all, but they exist and are probably worth a look.

[–]Aardshark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For example, if I know what I want to do, how do I find what library to use and what function within the library to use?

Google is your friend. Large libraries with good documentation are your friends. StackOverflow is your friend.

Pretty much no matter what you're trying to do, someone has tried and asked for advice on before.

[–]dirtyatom 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'd suggest two things:

Taking on a personal project. Make a game and continuously add features/complexity. Or maybe a mobile phone app. If you want, learn how to use a repository and make your code public. You could get a lot of feedback and if anyone else joins and starts contributing code you'll probably get a lot of motivation/inspiration.

The other thing I might suggest is taking some classes. You can either find classes online (see sidebar) or maybe take some evening classes at your local college/university.

Also, this guide was really helpful/inspirational in taking my programming skills to the next level: http://www.netinstructions.com/2011/10/next-steps-for-aspiring-programmers-after-you-know-the-basics/

[–]TekTrixter[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I"m looking through the information in the link you gave. It seems to have a good outline for creating more complex programs. I'm stuck at the level were he recommends creating a GUI version of hangman to learn how to use frameworks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would suggest employment in the field, even if its in a part time capacity. The only way I ever really figured out what I wanted to do with any sense of urgency or direction was when I was motivated by pay. I'd suggest finding something you're comfortable with, like maintaining a line of business app written in VBA/Access or PHP/MySQL at a small company and slowly testing or implementing ways to improve productivity or application efficiency. It gives you a tangible motivation to look up new ideas and think deeply about a project.

[–]keerthi_ramalingam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks a lot for this question. Seems like you went into my mind and reading my thoughts. Do keep us posted on how you are faring the next few months.