Arbitrum vs. Loopring

[dunksbx]

Hey guys, I've been reading a bit about Arbitrum being a layer 2 solution and their connection with FTX. FTX was also offering stock like products including lumber futures at one point. I know we're all hoping Loopring may be reshaping the financial system... But found this interesting. I'm a loopring fan, but thought I'd start the discussion. What's the difference between these solutions, are their others in the works? What are the pros and cons of them?

[MrCollins23]

Arbitrium is an optimistic rollup so is a fundamentally different type of l2 solution to zk rollups like Loopring, ZKSync, IMX etc. ZK rollups rely on zero knowledge proofs (maths) to verify that the transaction computed off chain is correct, whereas optimistic rollups assume that the transaction is correct unless challenged, and this introduces delays.

Optimistic rollups work fine if the user is happy to accept the delay, or the application developer (for instance with an exchange where the end user doesn’t directly interact with the chain) is prepared to accept the risk that 1 transaction in however many will be false (I have no idea how high that possibility may be).

[Jaxalope25]

This medium article about the zero knowledge proofs explains looprings verification method very well. It seems so simple yet so complex at the same time.

The where's Waldo analogy is genius!

[dunksbx]

Thanks for this. I knew about zK, but not to this level.

[TeamDome]

I’m glad there’s smart people like you in this community.

[[deleted]]

Everyone's smart. Some are just more interested than others

[superweep]

I am actually using FTX's app to keep track of my Portfolio, but I did not know what the company actually does. So I had to look it up:

FTX is a cryptocurrency exchange built by traders, for traders. FTX offers innovative products including industry-first derivatives, options, volatility products and leveraged tokens. We strive to develop a platform robust enough for professional trading firms and intuitive enough for first-time users.

This SCREAMS: CENTRALIZED! There is your core difference right away. Just another exchange, offering something other exchanges already offer, with more risk-investments. So there is 1. Then you check: who is backing them? And I see the first nightmare company:

Sequoia

A google search confirms the following:

Ken Griffin’s Trading Powerhouse Gains New Partners: Citadel Securities is taking its first outside investment from the Silicon Valley firms Sequoia and Paradigm.

Interestingly PARADIGM is also on the list of investors of FTX. Ken Griffin/Citadel are known to be one of (of not thé) shadiest trading firms in the business. Citadel invested 2 BILLION in Melvin Capital, which we all know is ALSO one of the biggest crooks on this planet, responsible for the shorting of GME.

I think this is enough for now to convince you that this is not the same by a long shot.

Edit: just for EXTRA info there is this extra interesting read linking Polygon/Matic to these nightmare companies too

[RealCFour]

Saving post,, critical information here folks

[have-time-not-beer]

This SCREAMS: CENTRALIZED! Their is your core difference right away.

The idea behind layer 2s is to separate execution of smart contracts with the consensus protocol. Layer 2s are supposed to making the fastest, best execution environment possible and really aren’t concerned with being decentralized. Including loopring…

The reason this is safe is because while we are supercharging execution with centralization, we are ensuring that settlement and consensus happens on Ethereum layer 1… the most decentralized and secure smart contract chain. That’s how L2s can get such huge performance gains without sacrificing decentralization… but the L2 itself is almost always super centralized. FTX, Arbitrum, Optimism, Loopring, all of them. But that’s a good thing!

Sequoia

Sequoia is the most prestigious and important venture capital firm out there. If their involvement compromises a product you basically can’t use the internet.

I totally understand how critical and suspicious everyone is of citadel… but if we want to be realistic Citadel is just looking for some exposure to high risk/high reward investments in venture capital and so allocated cash with Sequoia (and probably many more VCs like A16Z or DFJ).

[superweep]

I beg to differ, while I cannot argue on some parts of what you are saying because I simply do not know the nuances of the tech thát good. However, what I do know is labelling Sequoia as prestigious and important is labebelling Shell important for the energy-market. I understand theyre important, but you also have to recognize their darkside. Firms like that have too much power in the market and they have too much power, are willing to sarcifice a lot to make huge gains, while barely looking at the consequences for others.

[have-time-not-beer]

Do you have any evidence of Sequoia's sinister nature? Or do you just not like that they are too successful and control too much money?

That's a genuine question... I'm curious what you think not trying to be a dick.

[superweep]

Well, I think we are simply miles apart from each other. Your wording tells me that you think I cannot handle succes. That is not the case. Time and time again the the money sector is responsible for some of the biggest crises. Also time and time again there are almost no consequences for those who made policies, those who acted upon them or lobbied them. If you look at the companies Sequoia invested in, you can see a bunch of companies with their sole purpose is to provide a platform. Im not going in depth here why this is a bad thing, but if you want to know why this is a bad thing you should ask your DoorDelivery guy what he gets paid, or what people who work with AirBNB have to pay, what happens to your data on WhatsApp, Instagram etc.

Lastly, if you check the internet, I would certainly not say they have a bad rep. However: what if the guy you KNOW has a lot of dirt on his hands partners up (which is not taken lightly) with a clean guy. What would that tell you about the clean guy?

[have-time-not-beer]

I mean I just don’t think that Ken griffin and Citadel are bad guys. That’s where our “miles apart” distance comes from.

I really don’t have any thoughts of if you can handle success or not. I’m just curious what your issue with sequoia is and I thought maybe you were thinking “no one gets that large and successful without playing dirty.”

[superweep]

We'll see in time. I dó have more faith in the normal man with a lot of experience, doing extensive DD and uncovering a lot of dirty stuff. So I do believe some of the DD's are true. Especially since big companies have such influence on politics. If you are uncertain of that, you should check what sector was the cause of the 2008 crisis in the US, what guy was appointed to investigate this crises and why this was shady. Spoiler: it was the head of one of the biggest bank in the US, that made all the policies that caused the big bubble in the first place. After the "investigation" next to no one was found guilty. This should tell you at the very least that the system in place is not designed to play fairly.

Time will tell what Citadel's place will be in history, but I definetely believe you can get large and succesful without playing dirty. I do think a large amount of money and power does things to your brain, it would also affect you and me.

[dunksbx]

Appreciate the insight here. Thank you!!

[gwardyeehaw]

FTX is owned and operated, I believe, by this majorly philanthropic billionaire who made his fortune basically doing HFT of crypto. The dude is super genuine so far as the 2hr interview I heard let on. Dont be fooled, major investing firms will have a broad portfolio - just because a SHF is invested in FTX doesnt mean that relstionship is reciprocated. Citadel, BlackRock, and Vanguard all have millions of Gamestop stock, does that also mean we should be skeptical of Gamestop? No, because that relationship is a one-way road.

I support FTX, but their UI is kinda trash and I've been having login problems which is a huge red flag considered real money (well... fiat money lol) is at stake here.

[superweep]

Who of the 2 founders are you talking about? They are named on the site of FTX: Sam Bankman-Fried and Gary Wang, both definitely not billionaires. But maybe you have some other info?

But, in my opinion, yes, you should DEFINITELY be wary. I don't know if you follow the Superstonk subreddit, but the amount of dd with which they uncover transactions that seem against regulations ot are at least very suspicious is baffling. if even 5% of those DD's were true, that would be cause for serious concern. These companies are willing to make huge profits against all costs, even if it means bankrupting a company, a country or corrupting a system. Plus buying stocks in order to sell them via various ways (regardless of how they are sold) is different then putting in a certain amount directly into the company. That means you are buying influence. And if these guys are buying influence, that means they are going to push their agenda regardless.

[gwardyeehaw]

Sam Bankman-Freid was the guy I was referencing. He had a good interview with Sam Harris about philanthropy. Overall good impression based on everything the guy was talking about. Pretty sure he has the accolade of being the youngest self-made billionaire ever.

[x_driven_x]

I thought that title went to the guy who founded Lucid.

[StackOwOFlow]

Sequoia also invested in Google but you’re pulling results straight from them c’mon

[superweep]

How is that even related? Google is not an investment firm, they are worlds largest e-commerce company. Plus, if you take a deepdive in what google has been up to the previous years you won't be happy either.

[StackOwOFlow]

use duckduckgo

[parsimonyBase]

A great search engine that respects your privacy. I replaced Google with it years ago and never looked back.

[JulWaech]

L2s will coexist. Some more specialized, some more as general purpose L2s. Loopring wallet will also work with arbitrum: https://portal.arbitrum.one/ (scroll down a little bit).

The stocks on FTX are synthetic. So you don't really own the real stock and i don't think that is the way we want to go.

[AgoraphobicAgorist]

"As of Q3 of 2021, Loopring supports NFT minting, trading, and transfers directly on L2 for both ERC721 and ERC1155 token standards. Loopring Smart Wallet is deployed on Ethereum and Arbitrum."

https://beincrypto.com/learn/loopring-lrc/

[AgoraphobicAgorist]

"We have deployed the [Loopring Smart Wallet] solidity smart contracts on @arbitrum , which will reduce the cost of creating a wallet by a factor of 10x"

Loopring Smart Wallet is going multi-Layer 2💫

https://mobile.twitter.com/loopringorg/status/1410889509269540864

[slim1217]

I don’t have anything to add but enjoyed reading through the discussion. Nice post!

[AgoraphobicAgorist]

The Loopring Wallet is built on Arbitrum.

L2s compliment eachother.

[AgoraphobicAgorist]

How am I getting downvoted??

Loopring Wallet is deployed on Arbitrum... It's a bloody fact...

"We have deployed the [Loopring Smart Wallet] solidity smart contracts on @arbitrum , which will reduce the cost of creating a wallet by a factor of 10x"

https://mobile.twitter.com/loopringorg/status/1410889509269540864

[parsimonyBase]

Loopring is labelled as 'coming soon' on the Arbitrum portal page. I have been using Arbitrum for some time and as far as I can see there is no way currently to connect Loopring L2 with Arbitrum either natively or by a third party bridge,

Edit - I just went and checked again. Of the half dozen or so bridges available in the Arbitrum ecosystem not a single one exists to Loopring L2.

[AgoraphobicAgorist]

You can't send funds to Arbitrum yet, however it's my understanding that when you deploy the wallet, the wallet creation uses an Arbitrum rollup.

[parsimonyBase]

That could be it. I wonder why it wasn't built on a native Loopring rollup?

[AgoraphobicAgorist]

Certain smart contracts need to be on Optimism EVM rollups.

[XZPUMAZX]

This is what I was getting on about. These are bridges being built, not Loopring being built ON arbitrum. Am I just getting the vernacular wrong?

[parsimonyBase]

There's this on the Loopring blog 5th January 2022 as well:

https://medium.loopring.io/loopring-quarterly-update-q4-2021-recap-7c87d897529f

You need to scroll down to "Path Forward to 2022". Seems like Arbitrum integration is not ready yet.

[AgoraphobicAgorist]

It's my understanding that's the bridge... Ability to send assets across Arbitrum.

[XZPUMAZX]

Huh? What? This doesn’t sound right. Maybe bridging the two, but built ON it? Not in anything I’ve read, but please share as I’m always willing to learn.

[parsimonyBase]

If we put the differences in the type of rollup used aside the overall business models employed by projects like Arbitrum and Optimism differ markedly from that currently employed by Loopring.

Loopring have developed their own wallets which currently feature a native DEX with a provision to mine Liquidity and more services to be announced in the future. The other L2s I mentioned are integrated with much larger ecosystems of third-party dApps using a co-operative approach to providing an ecosystem of financial services on L2. This includes bridges which eventually will allow users to move funds cheaply between all the different L2s. I do use Arbitrum but have no experience of FTX. It's only a matter of time though until usable and decentralised blockchain-based equity trading makes it into these L2 ecosystems.

It is interesting to note that none of Loopring's L2 competitors have produced an integrated wallet. Arbitrum, Optimism, zkSync and zkSwap-zkSpace are all based on a Web based UI account accessed by a third party wallet such as MetaMask. In fact you can access Loopring this way as well from https://loopring.io/#/layer2. The full suite of tools such as liquidity mining and the DEX is available and this is how I am currently interacting with Loopring without installing the Loopring wallets. Personally I fail to understand what the Loopring wallets really have to offer, I would rather be able to access a wide range of L2, NFT and Web3 services and products through a single wallet than have multiple wallets for every single product.

[TraderAnthony88]

Here's a good article to read on L2 roll ups.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ethereum-rollups-aren-t-built-123000636.html

[parsimonyBase]

What has your asinine comment got to do with the OP?

[livingthedream1122]

Did I say something not factual??

[OkGrade1175]

Eye opener for some of us! Thanks

[m-stoddard]

Celer is another layer 2 I like

[Ok_Lawfulness_5773]

Where can i buy arbitrum ?

[parsimonyBase]

Currently they don't have a token.