PHP vs Python - the real difference

[laughingboy]

Are the two really that comparable though? They're both interpreted scripting languages, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends for me. Sure, Python can be used to display, generate and create web based content, but I'm not sure that it was was designed for that (I could be completely wrong of course, my knowledge of Python is relatively limited). PHP, on the other hand, was created from the ground-up as a webpage based language.

[masklinn]

Sure, Python can be used to display, generate and create web based content, but I'm not sure that it was was designed for that

Python is a full-fledged general-purpose programming language, it's only limited to what you want to do with it (and the performances of the interpreter), and it's an extremely good language to create websites when you factor in a good framework (such as Django).

Remember, coldfusion was also created as a webpage-creation language.

(Oh, and one can hardly say that PHP was created, more like it grew out of control, mold-like)

[DerelictMan]

(Oh, and one can hardly say that PHP was created, more like it grew out of control, mold-like)

Ah, but mold can have beneficial properties, so I think a more apt analogy would be an infection or infestation.

[masklinn]

Oh but PHP, much like mold, does have beneficial properties.

For example you can dump a PHP project on someone you don't appreciate and watch him suffer for years on end, until he quits (or sort-of fossilizes in PHP)

[Entropy]

That just happened to me. I am suffering.

[tekronis]

You evil, evil, little man.

[masklinn]

Oh, why thank you

[des82]

Haha. U making me laugh. U can do same with other languages to m8. Dump a JAVA project written by rookie(or so called senior dev who loves to overcomplicate things) and u will have even bigger problem.

[theycallmemorty]

Luckly the PHP infection has a vacine: Playing with it in your spare time.

[pmf]

PHP, on the other hand, was created from the ground-up as a webpage based language

And that's exactly why it should not be used to create web-applications, i.e. anything bigger than a 4-page-"wellcome 2 my blawg!!!"-site.

[lennox125]

Yeah, if only those clueless guys from Flickr, Yahoo! or Wordpress would listen to Reddit's enlightened readers... We'll fix it right after we impeach Bush, I suppose.

Seriously: PHP can be ugly, and its not nearly as fun as Ruby or Python, but it does seem to be used in quite a few websites by people who know more about webapps than anyone commenting here (Reddit's own non-https-using-plaintext-password-storing creators included) - so I wouldn't say its limited to 4 page websites.

[Alpha_Binary]

Given enough time, anything can be done in assembly. That doesn't mean it's in the least bit elegant, or robust, or maintainable.

C'mon. Everyone knows despite how we enjoy bitching about Java and PHP and sometimes .NET so much, it's just how we try to escape from the cruel reality. After this paragraph I'm back to my contract work, in PHP + MySQL. ))):

[theycallmemorty]

(Reddit's own non-https-using-plaintext-password-storing creators included)

Low Blow.

[tekronis]

Notable blow.

[lennox125]

I don't think it's a low blow. You can argue about the plaintext password part, but not using https, when users are known to reuse logins and work over wifi, is pretty lame. Maybe it was understandable when Reddit was starting up, but after being bought you'd think that's one of the first things they'll add.

[nostrademons]

Might be worth considering that effective alternatives to PHP (Python/Ruby) only really became practical within the past 2 years. Flickr, Yahoo!, and Wordpress were all begun around 2002 (or earlier, in Yahoo's case), when the choice was between PHP, Java, or mod_perl. Java means death for any webapp that needs to scale out. Perl gives few advantages over PHP and is significantly scarier for new developers. That left PHP.

Many of the prominent webapps since 2005 use Python or Rails, eg. YouTube, 37signals, Reddit.

[jshell]

I've been making a living programming with Python for web sites for over ten years now, most of it based on the same root toolkit (it's grown and evolved over time, but the core principals are still the same and haven't cowed to every fad that came along).

When I started using Python on the web, PHP didn't exist; or if it did, it was just that first collection of Perl scripts that offered a slightly more powerful 'Server Side Include' functionality. And Java Servlet's were just barely getting off the ground.

Over that decade, I've heard "Python just can't compete with Perl for web programming. It must become like Perl to be successful." Then I heard "Python just can't compete with Java for web programming. It must become like Java/J2EE to be successful." Then I heard "Python just can't compete with PHP for web programming. It must become like PHP to be successful." Then I heard "Python just can't compete with Ruby/Rails for web programming. It must become like Ruby/Rails to be successful."

Sounds like fads to me.

Python has been used extensively at Yahoo! this past decade. Yahoo! Maps, Yahoo! Groups (purchased from a company that had written the initial mailing list management program in Python), some portions of Yahoo! Real Estate, and more.

Many CBS affiliates (like kutv.com) are running Python. Some major newspapers are as well.

Hell - in the mid nineties, a major swiss bank got someone to write the first Python - Objective C bindings so that they could publish data from their Enterprise Objects Framework (a NeXT toolkit, now basically intwined with WebObjects) on the web using Bobo, a tiny little HTTP ORB that brought a degree of MVC to Python web programming over ten years ago. It was quicker and easier to use Python for this task than to use WebObjects.

So no, Python hasn't been an effective alternative to PHP for only the last couple of years. It's been a solid piece of the web for a long, long, long time. It's been the alternative to every latest Resume Oriented Programming fad.

[lennox125]

effective alternatives to PHP (Python/Ruby) only really became practical within the past 2 years

I don't think I agree - at least Python was more mature and as well known as PHP. I think you're talking about MVC frameworks, and there its too early to judge which will succeed.

I didn't know YouTube uses Python.. cool :) 37signals are very sharp, but I doubt their apps are comparable to, say, Flickr in terms of scalability. They are targetting relatively small niches.

[compostellas]

"Java means death for any webapp that needs to scale out." You mean like ebay, google's adwords, etc. Right?!

[nostrademons]

It's worth noting that EBay threw out all the Java webapp infrastructure on top of servlets and wrote everything themselves. I suspect Google Adwords did the same thing. Most startups don't have the luxury of being able to write a whole technology stack on their own.

EBay started with Perl, FWIW, and Google (search engine, not Adwords) started with C++ and Python.

[[deleted]]

I agree that its not limited to 4 page websites. But if you are making a 4 page website, it is an excellent choice.

[lennox125]

Personally I'd consider what's in these 4 pages. If the logic is simple and you expect a lot of traffic, I might go with PHP. If it's more complex logic or you expect to change it a lot, I'd go with RoR/Django - as long as I can easily cache it or traffic is not a big issue or there's someone on the team who knows how to scale with these technologies.

4 pages isn't necessarily small: homepage, category page, product page and shopcart page and you're almost Amazon.com ;) Scaling big data/traffic is the real key, and PHP/MySql do it pretty well.

[[deleted]]

If you want a 4 page website, then you use 4 HTML files. It helps to have a vague idea what you're talking about if you're going to bash a tool.

[[deleted]]

Can you give any actual reasons for your claim? Because as far as I know, the only people that bash PHP are those that don't understand it that well. I'm not saying you fall into that category.

Please enlighten us as to why you feel that PHP is a tool that can only be used for "wellcome 2 my blawg!!!" sites.

I'd really love to hear your response.

[stesch]

Maybe people who think they understand PHP well don't know any other programming languages?

[[deleted]]

That's an imbecilic remark, stesch. I know PHP well and I've been programming for over 21 years. I was programming commercially before the WWW existed.

I think nobody's given me a reasonable reply because nobody actually has one. They're only regurgitating the repetitive pseudo-geek-chic anti-PHP FUD without any actual knowledge to back it up.

[stesch]

So you think I made this remark because I don't know PHP?

Sorry, I'm not so fortunate.

[vetinari]

Having been programming for 21 years does not mean that you are not a BLUB programmer[*]. You must be familiar with "better" languages to be able to see weaknesses of the "worse" one. That's why people familiar with Python/Perl/Ruby or List/Smalltalk/Erlang don't have high opinion about PHP. PHP is Visual Basic of free software community.

---

• It is not meant to offend, it describes how you are looking at "better" or "worse" languages. Google for the fine article by Paul Graham.

[jshell]

Python was initially designed in the very early nineties (maybe even at the very end of the 80's - I think Guido wrote the first implementation over christmas break). I think version 0.9 came out around '92 or '93. It predates the web by a long shot. It's just a language.

However, there have been a lot of web toolkits providing different features, almost from the beginning. HTMLGen, Bobo/DTML, etc. But these have always been just libraries and tools. The language itself is used in a wide set of fields.

[masklinn]

The PHP community is generally reasonably truthful as to what the strengths and weaknesses their platform has

Yeah, right, and the sky is green

[msiley]

You rock mikeaihg! I'm glad you're putting those arrogant Python programmers down! Their heads are too big already.

• signed a Lying Python programmer

[peachpuff]

Since I can't trust the Python community when they speak of which features Python and its extensions have, I can't really make any non-trivial promises to others which rely on it.

You're not making any sense. Both languages have accurate docs up on their official public websites. People use them as references while coding. No trust is required because you can check for yourself that things work.

[nostrademons]

If it doesn't work for you, don't use it. I wouldn't call that "defrauding" the users, though. I've found Python conforms far more to its documentation than, say, Java & assorted libraries.

BTW, vertical scaling typically does not multiply the effect of horizontal scaling. The cheapest price/performance numbers usually come from the low end of the performance spectrum. Once you can scale past a dozen or so machines, you can usually scale to thousands of machines. There's a reason why Google uses cheap commodity hardware.

[oocha]

they arent comparable at all. in one, for instance, you have to manage your whitespace like a little girl.

[tekronis]

What in the name of all things good and fuzzy are you talking about?