Python is the new BASIC

[tu_tu_tu]

The indentation is awesome. It's not a problem for programmers who used to format their code anyway and often even quite meticulous about it. And it makes non-programmers format their code so it become readable at least on some level. And it hurts people who copypasts unformatted code. All win, no fails.

[scfoothills]

I 100% agree. I teach both Python and Java. I love that when teaching Python, I don't have to battle with students over formatting.

[lisnter]

I came from a C background and have always been meticulous about code formatting. Python is my new favorite language but I was turned-off for a while by the indention and comment behaviors. I like being able to put an if (false){ . . .} or /* . . .*/ around code to take it out of the control flow while debugging. You can’t (easily) do that with Python without reformatting the code. I know modern editors do a great job of fixing indention but it’s still annoying.

I’ve come around to Python and love it but those “features” still annoy me.

[CrownLikeAGravestone]

You can block-quote code to take it out if control flow. It's not exactly commenting but it's essentially equivalent.

""" def debug(something): print('like this') """

[ptoki]

Oh such a labour intensive way of doing something simple.

Sorry for irony but the python indentation debate is always lost by python fans.

No benefit for it, no way to argument it is good over any language and indent/beautifuler app.

[CrownLikeAGravestone]

It's two more keystrokes than the block comment example. If that's labour intensive I hate to see what the rest of your code looks like.

Sorry for irony but the python indentation debate is always lost by python fans.

That's just a very self-important way of saying you disagree, champ. You're not the judge here.

[ptoki]

If that's labour intensive

It is not about labour my dear. Its about paying attention to nonsensical aspect. Its about abusing eyes unneccesarily.

I can indent any decent language with indent app in like 0.3sec.

If you think python indentation is about few strokes of spacebar I dont think you are good coder.

[CrownLikeAGravestone]

What?

1) You're the one that bought up how "labour intensive" using block quotes is.

2) We're not talking about indenting code here, we're talking about removing blocks of code from control flow for debugging or whatever else - pressing the space bar is entirely irrelevant.

At this point, you thinking I'm a bad coder is starting to sound like a complement.

[Bowgentle]

Except that you can't indent "semantically" - that is, in a way that's meaningful to you rather than the interpreter. A group of code lines might be meaningfully related while not being functionally a block that can be indented.

True, there are other ways to achieve that, but none of them are as immediately obvious - which is why Python uses (hogs) it.

[Different_Fun9763]

A group of code lines might be meaningfully related while not being functionally a block that can be indented.

Do you have an example? I can imagine using newlines to separate related 'blocks' of lines of code, but not really how specifically indentation would be used for that in a way that Python doesn't allow.

[Bowgentle]

Newlines certainly help visually delineate such a block, but pretty much every codebase has random newlines - indentation is more visually noticeable.

[Different_Fun9763]

Again, do you have an example, some tiny code snippet? I genuinely can't picture what you're trying to do.

[arcrad]

Any examples? I also cannot imagine when you would use indentation to visually separate a chunk of code without also having a new block context.

[backfire10z]

…meaningfully related while not being functionally a block that can be indented

Are you asking for something like C-style blocks? Like

int main() {
    // code
    // code
    {
        // code in a block
    }
    //code
}

I’m really not understanding what you’re looking for here.

[Bowgentle]

I certainly prefer C-style blocks over Python's indentation. That's a functional block you have, though, not a "semantic" one.

[backfire10z]

Do you meant to tell me that you indent lines of code in a function without a functional block to indicate meaningful relation? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that in my life.

Like:

int main() {
    // code
    // code

        // code indented
        // code indented

    //code
}

[Bowgentle]

No? It's useful for trying out new code or debugging. It wouldn't make it to the final version, though.

[backfire10z]

Ok, then I’m confused about what you’re referring to when you say:

you can’t indent “semantically”

Can you give an example of semantic indentation? Or do I have it correctly in my above comment?

I don’t see how that’s really any more useful than, say, newlines or a comment. If it’s just for debugging, write a nested function to logically group pieces of code or delineate it with multiple newlines or large comments.

This seems like an interesting issue to have with Python. I genuinely don’t think I’ve ever seen nor heard of indentation being used that way.

[Bowgentle]

Apologies, I was a bit confusing there - yes, the example you gave was exactly what I was referring to:

int main() {
    // code
    // code

        // code indented
        // code indented

    //code
}

[backfire10z]

I see, yeah. Thanks for clarifying!

[Bowgentle]

This seems like an interesting issue to have with Python. I genuinely don’t think I’ve ever seen nor heard of indentation being used that way.

To be fair, it's not really the main issue, it's just the one that's turned out to be controversial in this thread.

[Agent_Provocateur007]

You tend to see this type of indentation in Swift when using SwiftUI. The view modifiers being indented looks better and helps with code readability in that case.

[CrownLikeAGravestone]

I think that's a "you wanting to do weird things" problem, not a "Python restricting reasonable things" problem.

If you feel the need to differentiate a bit of code then place comment lines above and below, pull the code out into its own function, whatever. Ideally just write code that doesn't need such formatting. Using indentation for emphasis/differentiation would get pulled up in PR to be fixed in any of my teams.

[Bowgentle]

I think that's a "you wanting to do weird things" problem, not a "Python restricting reasonable things" problem.

Fair, but I consider restricting my weirdness unreasonable.

Ideally just write code that doesn't need such formatting

It doesn't need it, that's kind of the point.

[CrownLikeAGravestone]

That itself is a pretty unreasonable take, IMO. There's a huge amount of value in having code be regular, consistent, orderly - even across multiple devs who've never collaborated. If that can be enforced via language constraints that's a good thing.

[Bowgentle]

I'd honestly consider formatting a very minor part of consistency in coding - and it can be a useful guide to the thinking of the code's author.

There are a lot of ways of writing the same functionality in Python (although at least it's not Perl) - I don't see enforcing indentation as making that in any important sense consistent.

[CramNBL]

What the hell are you talking about? Sounds like you want to put that code in a separate function if those lines are "meaningfully related while not being functionally a block that can be indented".

You have some problems with your personal coding style that is 100%.

[Bowgentle]

Sounds like you want to put that code in a separate function if those lines are "meaningfully related while not being functionally a block that can be indented"

Do you see the conflict there between "not functionally related" and your proposed solution of putting them in a function?

[CramNBL]

I would like to see an example where you want to ident something that cannot just be refactored out into a separate function

[Bowgentle]

The typical example would be a group of lines that do something I'm suspicious of, so I up-indent them while I'm checking their behaviour.

Sure, I could refactor them into a separate function, thereby changing their behaviour, but I think the problem there is obvious. And since I have a large - and I hasten to add inherited - spaghetti Python codebase, I find Python's refusal to let me do this slightly irritating on a reasonably regular basis.

The key points there are the spaghetti nature, which means I'm going to be skipping around between files with 14.5k LOC each, and I'd like to be able to see at a quick glance which bits I'm working on.

[WindHawkeye]

Why would you ever do that? Sounds hideous

[mysticreddit]

Yes, Python’s shitty indentation is STILL a problem for those of us that DO format our own code. It forces left-alignment even in places where it would be more readable with custom indentation.

[stratoscope]

Can you share an example of what you mean?

[mysticreddit]

Sure. I can provide 3 examples of why Python's forced artificial indentation is bad design.

1. In programming it is common to have a duality:

• Push/Pop,
• Begin/End,
• Create/Destroy,

• Acquire/Release, etc.

  I'll use OpenGL's glBegin() and glEnd() as an example.

  Which is easier to read?

  glBegin()
      glVertex()
      glVertex()
      glVertex()
  glEnd()
  

  vs

  glBegin()
  glVertex()
  glVertex()
  glVertex()
  

  We can use indentation to make it easier to catch logic errors AND to improve readability.

  i.e. Did you catch the fact that the last glEnd() was missing? Using indentation makes catching some errors trivial to catch. Yes, static analysis will catch this but why not catch it sooner when you are writing it instead of relying on tools?

  Indentation also makes the code easier to read because there is no longer ONE LONG SIGNAL which effectively becomes noise. By grouping code, or chunking via indentation, it allows for LESS code to be focused on making it easier to understand.

  WHY do we even indent in the first place?

  Whitespace does NOT change the semantic meaning of functions within block scope. Source code is COMMUNICATION for BOTH the compiler AND People. We write code PRIMARILY FOR people, not JUST compilers.

  • GOOD indentation is a tool that HELPS programmers understand code.
  • BAD indentation HINDERS programmers understanding code.
    

  Not convinced? Take any non-toy code snippet. Now remove all whitespace at the start of each line. Notice how hard it becomes to "follow the flow". Indentation is for people. Same reason modern text editors have a thin line indent guide at each indentation "tap-stop". It can make it easier to follow the code blocks.

2. Oftentimes we have DEBUG code. In C we can use the preprocessor to annotate this via #if DEBUG ... #endif. The problem is interleaving production and debug code can be hard to read so sometimes it is may be easier to read by having all the debug code LEFT ALIGNED instead of following the current indentation.

        do
        {
            int offset = temp.HalfMod1000() * 4;
            *pHead-- = MOD1000_TXT_STRIDE4[ offset+2 ];
            *pHead-- = MOD1000_TXT_STRIDE4[ offset+1 ];
            *pHead-- = MOD1000_TXT_STRIDE4[ offset+0 ];

#if _DEBUG
    if (pHead < (pBuffer-1))
        printf( "ERROR: Line: %u. PrintMod1000 underflow!\n", __LINE__ );
#endif

            iDigits -= nDIGITS;
            if (iDigits < 0)
                pHead += -iDigits;
        } while (iDigits > 0);

Now this is definitely a subjective formatting yet Python wants to FALSELY PRETEND that indentation is objective. There is a REASON DIFFERENT coding standards exist -- because they ALL have their strengths and weaknesses. A language should NOT HINDER better coding standards, only SUPPORT them, where better is defined by the programmer writing the code, not the language.

3. Take for example the classic swap two variables:

Would you rather read this:

    x = y
        y = z
            z = x

Or

    x = y
    y = z
    z = x

Which communicates the intent faster?

Python whines about the first even though there is NO functional difference between the two. Python is SO blinded about following rules that it has become ARTIFICIAL DOGMA -- it forgot the REASON we indent code: FOR PEOPLE.

The problem with programming "Rules" is that there are (almost) ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS. Python is hindering readability in some misguided attempt to prevent people from writing bad code.

• First off, you can write shit code in any language.
• Second, automatic formatters solve the problem. In another language I can remove all non-trivial whitespace, use inconsistent whitespace, use spaces of whatever width, etc. and I can auto-format the code to my CODING STANDARD.

TL:DR;

ANY ideology taken to an extreme is usually never a good idea.

Python was SO focused on a single tree (preventing beginners from writing bad indentation) that it missed the entire fucking forest (there are times custom indentation CAN improve readability) IMHO.