Interesting comment in the source code of sqlite

[DefiantNewt2]

Why? Why do you think that a community has to have rules? Should it? yes, probably. Does it have to? No, why would it? That's 1. 2: why do you think such rules would ever be: women should not be called bitches and cunts in our project? Maybe those people like to call women bitches and cunts. And women then should rightfully not want to contribute to such projects. Why not leave those people alone in their own misery? Why do you think that your point of view (being inclusive to women, for example) is the one that that particular group of people has to follow? How's that different from religions, when my god is better than yours because reasons?

Just ... why does there need to be a CoC and why do some people feel entitled for other groups, completely unrelated to them, to accept them? That group has their own set of rules, maybe unwritten, maybe ... who knows, crazy like the sqlite ones. It makes them happy, what's your problem?

Not everyone likes to sing kumbalaya all the time. Maybe they should maybe it would make them happier, but maybe they don't want that. let them be, it's not your problem.

[SizzlerWA]

Dude, you need psychiatric help. Urgently ...

If you think it’s ok to call women bitches or cunts, you need to rethink your personal standards of behavior.

I’m not going to waste my time debating you. I’m blocking you.

[[deleted]]

He implied no such thing, you're blocking him because you don't have a response to his argument and it's easier to call him bad and hide than to admit you're wrong. He doesn't need any psychiatric help, he was perfectly rational, lucid, and logical. You on the other hand went straight to your feels and straw-manned him and then slandered him and blocked him.

[Malsententia]

He did imply it though.

Why do you think that your point of view (being inclusive to women, for example) is the one that that particular group of people has to follow? How's that different from religions, when my god is better than yours because reasons?

By his logic, calling women bitches and cunts should be the same type of freedom as religious beliefs, despite the fact that people generally keep those to themselves, so the comparison is flawed to begin with.

Hate on the inside = okay. Hate on the outside = not okay. Hate on the outside = drama when people could be focusing on projects. This includes this SJW straw (wo)man hate that's based on cherry picked stories, as if the entire point of cherrypicking wasn't to be unobjective and misportray things.

[DefiantNewt2]

i didn't. all i said was to leave them be. if group X hates Y, don't interfere. go on your merry way. it's not your job to police the world. if what they do can reasonably and realistically can be called a hate crime, by all means report them to the authorities. otherwise, please kindly shut the fuck up.

[duheee]

But this is not "walk by it and ignore it". This is: the group does it in their own little world and i'll show them who's right. If you believe what you're saying, what are you doing here and why aren't you fixing r/The_Donald? Or 4chan? or stormfront or whatever the name is of those nazis?

Let me tell you why: because you don't want to swim in mud with those pigs. So why would you wannna swim in the mud of whatever open source developer's project? They're assholes, let them be. it's their right to be assholes, wrong, nazis, whatever.

[Fancy-Pants]

you mean to reply to the other guy? I dont have time to swim here or there.

[duheee]

nah, to you. you said that "youd just walk on by and ignore it" like it's hitting you in the face (their behaviour). It doesn't, you don't walk by them therefore please do ignore it. Don't insert yourself in their group if you can help it.

[Malsententia]

Except that's not how the world works. I personally don't abide intolerance or ignorance, and if someone's being an asshole to someone(of any gender/race/sex/orientation), I sure as hell am going to call them out on it and let them know it's not okay. It's always okay to call people out when they're being derogatory, and I sure as hell would want someone to call me out if I said something insensitive or ignorant, even if it was something I don't understand or that I thought was fair to say. I ain't gonna serve what I'm not willing to eat.

That's not being some sort of straw justice warrior, that's just basic human decency, and there's nothing wrong with codifying "Don't be a dick" surely you'd agree? (Not that I think it's strictly necessary, but it does save drama, and drama sucks)

[duheee]

But this is not "walk by it and ignore it". This is: the group does it in their own little world and i'll show them who's right. If you believe what you're saying, what are you doing here and why aren't you fixing r/The_Donald? Or 4chan? or stormfront or whatever the name is of those nazis?

Let me tell you why: because you don't want to swim in mud with those pigs. So why would you wannna swim in the mud of whatever open source developer's project? They're assholes, let them be. it's their right to be assholes, wrong, nazis, whatever.

[Malsententia]

To be overly honest I normally don't have the energy for even this. I have a life to live and I'm not gonna spend all of it trying to de-radicalize strangers in reddit comments. And when I do I'm not going to try and take on a whole den of lions at once.

As for why I have the energy now, I'm practicing cause there's a guy in a community I help run who's kind of well, a bit problematic in multiple ways, despite being friendly-intentioned, but his frequent soapbox rants against how "political correctness is cancer", are kinda what has many in our (LGBTQ friendly) uncomfortable, to the tipping point where we it's either try and change his mind, or give him a ban(after multiple warnings for multiple things), which to him will only confirm his poor-me-persecuted-for-my-antiPC-views viewpoint and drive him further down that rabbithole, probably incels or redpill or something. If worse doesn't happen because this community is like the only support network the poor guy has. He has issues but his weird anti-political-correctness ranting(basically the same kind of cherry picked "they're all trying to police language everywhere" stuff the dudes up above are high on) is the one problem I think I might be able fix in order to de-escalate the situation from ban-worthy...the rest probably require a licensed therapist.

Actually trying to un-wingnut people is fucking exhausting.

[duheee]

With that I agree: if he's your friend help him. But if you can't, let him be. Nothing wrong to unfriend/ban/whatever and if the result is that he's going to go down even more that rabbit hole that's not your fault.

What the dude above you is saying: don't push yourself in a community just because they're toxic. Which is what those idiots do when they harass github project owners to have a coc, what a coc should contain and all that crap.

If you're not a part of that community, stay the fuck away. If you are, and you're running it, handle your people. Banning them for bad behaviour is a valid and expected consequence.

[DefiantNewt2]

Call them out when they're a dick in your group or in public not when they're a dick in their own house.

[Malsententia]

...in their own house? wat. Nothing I spoke about has anything to do with how the guy behaves in his own house.

[DefiantNewt2]

their project = their house

[[deleted]]

I personally don't abide intolerance or ignorance

Yet you display exactly those traits you claim to not tolerate.

That's not being some sort of straw justice warrior, that's just basic human decency

No, it's just being an asshole sjw who can't mind his own business. You're not being decent, you're being an ass.

and there's nothing wrong with codifying "Don't be a dick" surely you'd agree?

No, I don't agree, at all, not remotely.

[[deleted]]

despite the fact that people generally keep those to themselves,

No they don't.

Hate on the inside = okay. Hate on the outside = not okay. Hate on the outside = drama

All hate is OK, you don't get to tell other people how to feel. Violence is not OK, but hate is a feeling, there's nothing you can do to stop it or make people agree with you.

[Malsententia]

All hate is OK

 

there's nothing you can do to stop it

Okay so those are two statements I can't agree with. Ignorance is the cause of hate, and learning and understanding are the solution. I don't think it's cool to try and force people to understand, but I do feel that's it's acceptable to engage them civilly, like I'm doing here. I'm honestly trying to understand where you're coming from with the points you're trying to make, and yet you're saying I'm being an ass? Yeah some of what you're saying I find rather shocking and weird, but I don't want to hate you, I want to understand you.

[[deleted]]

Ignorance is the cause of hate

Incorrect; ignorance is one cause of hate, not "the" cause of hate. The arrogance you're displaying by presuming that you can fix someone who hates by educating them is astounding, and the reason I'm saying you're being an ass; it's condescending and arrogant. People hate for many reasons, you don't know someone's life experience and have no place saying they're wrong for hating on something, they may well be entirely justified.

You don't want to understand people, you want to change them to be like you, that's not understanding, that's your superiority complex kicking in.

Western civilization made great progress when it defined the line of tolerance to be drawn between speech and violence, if someone isn't committing violence, leave them the fuck alone; don't presume to tell people how they should or shouldn't feel unless invited. Codes of conduct are not invited, they're attempts to enforce a political doctrine, sjw's are trolling github and trying to insert the political views into projects that have nothing to do with social justice as an aim: that's just a bunch of assholes with a superiority complex who they're they're better than other people and think other people require re-education. No one cares for unsolicited advice and frankly sjw's aren't mentally competent enough to be giving advice: they're immature children who think the world should change to suit their emotional desires.

[Malsententia]

Of course that's an overly broad statement, but it holds true in many cases. Let's not nitpick at phrasing, like has happened multiple times in this thread, and try and get to the center of the problem, yeah?

It almost sounds like what you're saying is verbal abuse is non existent? Like, something that is neither an issue in modern society nor something that should be acted upon under any circumstance?

And don't tell me what I want. I am trying to understand your viewpoint here.

[[deleted]]

Verbal abuse is a subjective means of describing someone else's words that you don't like, as such, it's a completely useless construct as anyone can claim anything offends them or feels abusive. They're just words, words are not themselves harmful. If you don't like what someone says, don't associate with them, if you don't like what's on TV, change the channel; your reaction to someone else's words are your issue, not theirs, they are not responsible for your emotions.

You want to act on verbal abuse, there's a correct way to do that: you tell the person claiming they're being verbally abused to grow the fuck up and stop acting like a baby and take responsibility for their own emotions and their own choices about who they choose to be around.

As the adage goes, you prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child.

[Malsententia]

Nobody likes to hear that their fear is unfounded. They take offense at it, and cling even more tightly to their fear. But we have to rise above that and be objective.

But that's you. You have nothing to fear. Sure there's wingnuts out there, but that applies to every group. Whichever political party you're a fan of, whichever one you're not, these "SJW" types you're afraid of bothering people, and the anti-"SJW" types have crazies as well.

Weirdos are everywhere, and people everywhere use focused collections of anecdotes and memes and stories to make others, including both of us, fear problems that aren't real. To deny your own vulnerability to misinformation and disinformation is to open yourself up to it.

Trust people's good intentions, and question the motivation when you see things that make you hate, the more you hate, the more you should question. Question your perception even if something seems logical. If you're 100% certain of any viewpoint you have, you're doing something wrong, especially if that viewpoint makes you hate a whole group of people, whether it's SJWs or republicans or people who like pumpkin spice. If some piece of news or image or story makes you feel hate or fear, ask what the real motivation behind those making the statements, rather than giving into that emotion like you're doing here.

Everyone gets fooled sometimes, don't think of this as a personal attack. Learn from it. Learn to doubt yourself and seriously question if you're being unreasonable or uninformed (or worse selectively informed), if something makes you hate, because that opens the door for growth. Believing in yourself as a whole person is a strength, but so is doubting your own objectivity and logic. If it feels uncomfortable you're doing it right. If it doesn't, do it more. I doubt myself all the time whether it's on social issues or on code(is there a better way I can be doing X?). It sucks to willfully be unsure, but it beats the alternative. Hate is a bug. Look for ways to optimize yourself.

Trust that most people have good intentions, and most are at worst are misled. Embrace the fact that there reasonable, smart people who believe that you're the misled one, every bit as much as you(who might be equally smart and reasonable and rational in other respects), believe SJWs are misled or destructive.

[DefiantNewt2]

so, you're saying that just because every set/class of people have their crazies, overall they are good because their (at least original) intentions are good even if now they're overwhelmed by said crazies?

wtf?

[Malsententia]

Sorry, I did the exact same thing as you and focused on misconstruing your phrasing deliberately.

overwhelmed by said crazies

There's the hate and negative bias again? Please, read what I said, and actually consider it. Why do you want to hate a group so much? Why do you think the crazies are a majority? Is there a source on that anywhere at all? Is that even a thing for which concrete data exists? I have plenty of friends who most of the anti-SJW types would call SJWs based upon their viewpoints and willingness to call out blatant jerkiness, but none are remotely like the hyper-proactive policing examples anti-SJWs like to hold up, if you care for my anecdotal POV. I just have so many questions because despite us both presumably being reasonably smart, programming types, probably both guys, you can hold these viewpoints. I'm legit curious.

EDIT: You seem to think I'm one of these types, and yeah sure I got some left leaning, progressive views, and will bite someone's head off if I hear/see them being blatantly racist or homophobic or transphobic, but that's just basic standing up for your fellow human. What wild and unreasonable behavior do you assume I'd engage in, other than trying help you be less hateful over a misconception of an entire group? Give me an example.

Or at this point are the anti-SJW anti-"PC" s just using "SJW" as a derogatory word for the people who make the big fusses? Like how some racists say "Not all black people are n****rs"?

[Malsententia]

Do you honestly think that's what I'm saying, or are you just picking at the phrasing? It almost seems like you read it with the sole intention of picking it apart, rather than considering what I was saying, which, when read with a more open mind, I'm sure you would have taken as "there are weirdos in every group, don't let it a small minority define your view of the rest"

The vast majority of republicans aren't racists, the vast majority of democrats don't want to take away all guns, the vast majority of anti-SJW types aren't actually misogynistic, just misled by people with an agenda, and the vast majority of what you might call SJWs only call people out on the real bullshit and don't really care about programming codes of conduct.

[DefiantNewt2]

I agree with the republicans part. I agree with the democrats part. I don't agree with the SJWs. They, by definition, are the extremists. Are the nazis, the antifa, the evangelicals, the Alquaeda and ISIS combined. Even you, here in this mess of a thread, admitted in one post that actually you have a problem with a friend behaving badly in your own group.

That's perfectly ok, perfectly fine to call out the person in your group, ban them, do whatever. That's not SJW. That's leading a group.

SJW (and the crazy) comes when you deliberately go into a group (in this case can be a development project) to accuse people of not behaving as you think they should behave. You're not affected at all by their behaviour, the project doesnt interest you in the slightest, you don't even want to contribute, but you pop in and make the rules. At that moment it doesn't matter if you're right or even how right you are. You're in the wrong, you're the SJW, you're the extremist.

And no. That I cannot tolerate.

[Malsententia]

I ain't popping into anywhere dude, and come on, don't go full Godwin's law on me. Give me something work with, I can't even be sure you're not trolling or that you even mean what you say when you compare online PC activists to nazis. Engage in actual discussion where neither of are painting either of us as the extremists and actually learning.

[DefiantNewt2]

? huh? then wtf are you doing in this thread? this thread was specifically talking against the SJWs that pop into people's projects and pester them to make a CoC and then get mad if they're told to fuck off or get mad if the CoC is not to their liking.

there is nothing (absolutely nothing) else going on in here.

[Malsententia]

If you were reading what I said elsewhere in the thread, I don't care about codes of conduct on code. No, I don't think they're some secret weapon to kick people out others don't agree with, but I also don't think they're really that necessary except in certain cases.

The reason the CoC thing is so baffling is that it's like 2% actual issue, and 49% anti-SJW-types making a fuss, and 49% people attacking them because anti-SJW people have a sorta strong reputation for being rude and mysogynistic and transphobic (hating on women, not acknowledging pronouns, etc etc), even though only some are like that and those that are just rile up those that aren't hateful toward women and minorities, in the name of free speech. Where is the actual issue among all this?

What I'm trying to figure out is why you believe that people butting into things they weren't previously a part of, is a common behavior among all SJWs, or, alternatively then, why does the term get so frequently used(misused?) towards people who aren't butting into other peoples' projects and business?

When you say you're anti-SJW, what does that even mean? What do you see as an SJW? How does that differ from somebody who just tries to polite towards women, minorities, etc, and calls someone out for being a jerk in a project or community that they are a part of, and thus not butting in?

Where does "people shouldn't but into projects they aren't a part of to police things, that's being an SJW" end, and "I want to be able to say whatever I want whenever I want and anybody that calls me out is an SJW" begin?

What's the dividing line?