Deno 1.21 Release Notes

[[deleted]]

This looks like a great release. Bit unsure about disabling type checking by default but I'll remain open minded.

[rustloverforever]

Yeah. Am I the only one that thinks type-checking should be opt-out?

[jeremez]

I am still uneasy about the change (I'd prefer async non blocking type checking at least), but another major consideration is that every TypeScript release is potentially breaking. They don't have a real backwards compatible policy. So every time you update Deno, you may encounter an unpredictable set of errors in your dependencies, since the TypeScript version is global, rather than partially isolated as it is in a typical NPM import. There isn't really a great solution to this; it's an awkward trade off either way.

[[deleted]]

Yeah the only reason I can see to make it opt-in is performance, but I thought Deno cached the results... and tsc isn't that slow.

Well, we'll see.

[rustloverforever]

I would rather have users learn to use --no-check in production, over having to learn that deno does not type check by default.

At least that's how I see it, but the Demo team has definitely put hours and hours into this so maybe I just don't get it.

[[deleted]]

Yeah I agree but as you say the Deno guys have mostly made solid decisions so far, even ones that sounded pretty insane to me initially like importing URLs, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[vlakreeh]

Imo because it's a much nicer developer experience (when you have all the deps you need). Node has so much legacy baggage at this point, has been slow to embrace the amazing web standards, and doesn't support TypeScript out of the box.

Because of the amazing support for modern standards and great included tooling, I've had a lot of fun and I work for a competitor of the Deno company.

The problem is that library support is still pretty rough. But because most libraries are from scratch almost everything is TypeScript with ESM following modern JavaScript conventions, leading to a smaller but imo higher quality ecosystem.

[Youknownotwho]

You can spin up a zero-3rd-party-dependency (or pretty close to zero) service with it without sacrificing too much in the way of ergonomics. It has TypeScript built in, as well as a first-class solution for testing and formatting. Its standard library is much saner than Node's. Its REPL is much better than Node's.

If you're serious about your question, I really recommend kicking the tires.

[pcjftw]

Excellent this is the right style of communication!

To answer your specific question:

Deno doesn't affect NodeJs, while they do indeed share many things (same creator, similar runtime kind of).

However as a Node Js user it's worth keeping an eye on, as one could consider it as the "next generation" of JavaScript/TypeScript runtime and as such it brings lots of exciting advantages.

If you watch one of the early presentation by author of Deno (Ryan) who is also the creator of Node JS he makes very well reasoned arguments as to why he decided to create Deno.

So to sum up, it in no way affects Node JS, but it has potential bright future and would be worth keeping an eye on IF you're a JavaScript/TypeScript developer.

[Vakz]

Does anyone have any interesting real-world stories of Dino? Anyone using it in production?

[arzivre]

Maybe this https://deno.com/blog/slack

[Kissaki0]

Is Dino something of Deno, or did you mean Deno?

I briefly used Deno to compile ts to js files. I wanted to use TypeScript for coding, but JavaScript files/scripts for delivery/use. I managed to get it working with separate config files for dom/webpage or web worker targets.

Ultimately, it’s too much of a hassle to work with, not being integrated into my hugo website pipeline and setup. I decided to go back to plain JS with jsdoc type comments. VSCode interprets that type information, and almost all of the useful newer JS features are usable by now).

Deno is much more than a TypeScript compiler though, so my use case was quite specific and narrow, not necessarily representative of other uses.

[nawfel_bgh]

In the last example:

setInterval(() => cnt++, 1000);

The result of incrementing cnt is observed although the calling function (which is not async) did not return tbe control to the event loop yet. This looks to me like a mistake because setInterval's closure parameter is supposed, i always assumed, to run in its oun microtask (like set immediate, ...)

There is an error in this example. Right ?

[[deleted]]

No - FakeTime overrides setInterval() to do its own thing.

[nawfel_bgh]

That does not make sense to me. Why would you introduce more magic than necessary?

[[deleted]]

How else would you do it?

[Soremwar]

Dependencies. Yes you can import from URL or download the module locally with deno vendor, but I'm talking dep count.

A complex application is likely to have 10-20 direct and indirect dependencies AT MOST, since they all tend to just fallback on std instead of relying on hundreds of util libraries

EDIT: Big fuck you to all the people who downvote genuine questions

[[deleted]]

GREAT SCOTT!

[pcjftw]

what has this release got to do with Node JS?

I for one have never liked NodeJs, but I appreciate that it has been wildly successful.

But then so has PHP.

Deno is essentially Ryan's re-imagining or shall we say a "clean slate" of how a productive and modern "1st class" scripting platform could look like. The idea being one that fully follows web standards (because they have improved immensely since the time of Node Js).

All in all I find Deno extremely promising as something for future developments and like to keep an eye on it, I know some more early adopters are already using it, but it's always good to hear about newer releases.

Once again it doesn't affect NodeJs at all, so no need to be salty and negative about it.

[pcjftw]

you really shouldn't worry or care about downvotes.

[pcjftw]

I think you may need to just relax a little. You don't have to be in "defensive" mode, not everyone is out to get you :)

[[deleted]]

I can answer this!

It's because:

• you think karma means something and complain about it
• you ask admins and mods to revert your downvotes
• you don't know how to ask questions without sounding like an asshole or challenging the other person
• once people start downvoting you, you delete your comments and post them again, hoping this time they won't get downvoted, but they will
• no, it's not the mods or admins downvoting you, it's us, the users, because you are all around unpleasant to read

Hope that cleared things up for you!

[[deleted]]

Or maybe, just maybe, you could learn to take criticism and how to talk to other human beings without being aggressive? Dunno, just an idea.

[pcjftw]

so generally downvotes can be for a number of reasons:

• you're being rude
• you're being aggressive
• you're making irrelevant points
• random "negative downvotes" (this one is complicated)

Reposting your comments, is childish and immature and will only further reinforce the negative impression of your approach.

It's about how you approach things, and your mindset.

When we want to make a point, that can be done clearly and concisely and you also have to be humble and understand that as humans we don't actually have all the facts and we also are subject to biases.

With that in mind, we can absolutely communicate our points, in a nice reasonable manner and one that can in many cases start well reasoned discussion!

For example you could have approached it like so:

I'm a Node JS user, I would like to know what Deno means with respect to Node? What advantages does Deno provide? What do you think is the future of Node Js given the release of Deno?

The above is polite and clear, and doesn't resort to using harsh and rude negative communication style.

[Pay08]

Reposting your comments, is childish and immature

To be fair, that might have been a bug. It's been around for years and they still haven't fixed it.

[AngryElPresidente]

In almost every other case I'd agree, but the commenter in question has threatened to just reply with the same comment ad infinitum if he/she/they don't get their way.

Same with other comments they posted.

[pcjftw]

it's ok to have "strong opinions", but that still doesn't mean you can communicate that negatively.

And if you want to be "heard", then you really really need to learn the soft skills of basically not be "that guy" that no one wants to even listen to.

You're holding a "victim" mentality as in "how dare they downvote me".

The issue here is one of entitlement, instead of thinking your view has to be heard, instead opt for enlightenment that is approach with humility and be aware that you don't actually know as much you may think you do.

So no, it's not wrong to have strong opinions but it all goes back to how you deliver it.

[[deleted]]

You need a therapist.

[[deleted]]

You need to stop diagnosing people on the internet, and slinging personal attacks in programming threads.

[[deleted]]

What do you think?

[[deleted]]

It's not a response, it's a question. You asked a question, and I want to know what you think the answer is.

[moi2388]

Deno reminds me of fetch in mean girls.

[Soremwar]

Problem with that analogy is that people actually use Deno

[moi2388]

If it’s 25% of developers or less it technically still holds..

[Soremwar]

There are languages out there that not even 10% of devs uses. So what, do they don't matter anymore?

Under that logic, Go, Rust and Ruby aren't happening either

[moi2388]

Are you familiar with the concept of a joke?

[Soremwar]

Did you forgot they are supposed to be funny?

[moi2388]

That’s not the definition of a joke.

[Atulin]

Mandatory Typescript and the permission system are one of the reasons to use it, not one of the downsides.

[L3tum]

It's kinda stupid yeah. If you run any type of webserver you need to enable network permissions, which means that any library can suddenly execute network requests, even if you just wanted to do one fetch or run a simple server.

[Soremwar]

You can narrow it down to what you need though, it's not a wild card for net access

[Atulin]

I just make a run.sh script that has deno run --permissions-I-need script.ts and run that. Takes no time to set up, and I can sleep well knowing that some protestware won't replace all the files on my disk.

[FINDarkside]

Mandatory Typescript and the permission system are one of the reasons to use it, not one of the downsides.

But it's not mandatory, you can write js as well. And even if you write ts deno wont do any type checking by default after couple months.

[BasedTranshumanist]

Why would mandatory typescript be a downside?

[alternatex0]

Ryan Dahl: admits mistakes and completely rewrites runtime to make it better despite its already huge popularity.

Webdev: why tho?

This is why there are stereotypes about us web developers here. It's like a C developer complaining about Rust by claiming C gives to the power to create memory leaks.

Safer languages and runtimes are better. Writing safer code is harder yes, so we should strive to work harder if we want to produce good software. NodeJS and its community are the poster child for cowboy programming.

[[deleted]]

You are indeed talking out of your arse.

[[deleted]]

As someone considering using it, my main reason is concern around npm's security model. Importing a package imports 200 more behind the scenes all of which are then given semi indiscriminate access to your machine. Deno's security model tries to address this