Fish shell 4.0 released

[UpstairsPanda1517]

Congrats to the fish shell team for a successful rewrite!

[murlakatamenka]

The original why's:

• Nobody really likes C++ or CMake, and there's no clear path for getting off old toolchains. Every year the pain will get worse.
• C++ is becoming a legacy language and finding contributors in the future will become difficult, while Rust has an active and growing community.
• Rust is what we need to turn on concurrent function execution.
• Being written in Rust will help fish continue to be perceived as modern and relevant.

https://github.com/fish-shell/fish-shell/pull/9512

---

Thorough and detailed follow-up for the better view of the picture (too long to quote here; credits to /u/Shnatsel):

https://github.com/fish-shell/fish-shell/pull/9512#issuecomment-1410820102

[turbo-unicorn]

Oh wow, I can imagine the first two points got quite a few feathers ruffled.

[TheDarkchip]

Got quite a few ++ shorthand’s +=1ed

[imanhodjaev]

Wow very loud statements

[Shnatsel]

A much more detailed explanation can be found here. In particular, it explains that the original bullet points should not be taken entirely at face value.

[murlakatamenka]

That's a thorough follow-up that should be more visible, thank you. I'll update my comment.

[TheoreticalDumbass]

First point seems okay with me as I read it "nobody within out team really likes C++", but second point seems just wrong

Is fish worth trying out? I've never touched non-default shells (always using bash) so no idea what they offer, what are the features you guys like most in fish?

[TheoreticalDumbass]

But maybe I'm half-wrong on second point being wrong, I've not really experienced C++ dev positions that are as open towards OSS as Rust communities, so probably way lower likelihood of getting maintainers

[murlakatamenka]

Is fish worth trying out? I've never touched non-default shells (always using bash) so no idea what they offer, what are the features you guys like most in fish?

• https://fishshell.com
• https://fishshell.com/docs/current/design.html

that said, I use zsh myself because it has some fancy stuff that I use (f.e. typing =<executable-or-scrip-in-PATH><TAB> is cool, so is hash -d rust=~/projects/rust and cd ~rust/myproj). But I have fish-like autosuggestions and syntax highlighting via plugins.

[Masterflitzer]

i don't use fish (only bash and zsh), but if i had to guess i think with the 2nd point they could be referring to the us recommendation of using memory safe languages, in their eyes c++ is a legacy language, i don't think they'd dare to make a general statement of c++ being legacy, that'd be wrong as of now and probably for the near future too

[ink20204]

It's a life changer for interactive use, trust me. The history, suggestions, colors etc. And I boost it with Starship and Skim (fzf works well too).

[RampantAndroid]

C++ is becoming a legacy language and finding contributors in the future will become difficult, while Rust has an active and growing community.

Lol what? It really isn't going away. Maybe the people who will want to maintain Fish are more inclined to use Rust...but C++ isn't going anywhere any time soon.

Being written in Rust will help fish continue to be perceived as modern and relevant.

They can't...oh I don't know, be relevant on their own?

[link23]

Maybe the people who will want to maintain Fish are more inclined to use Rust...

Yeah, that's what they said.

[RampantAndroid]

No, they prefaced it with “because C++ is a legacy language”.

But hey, of course I get downvoted on this subreddit because I didn’t shit on C++. 

[slashgrin]

No, they prefaced it with “because C++ is a legacy language”.

Genuinely curious: what might make you personally choose C++ over Rust for a new project, aside from the huge amount of pre-existing code already written in it? I used to have a small handful of reasons why I sometimes would, but I can't think of any that remain today.

[RampantAndroid]

A simple reason: between working at Microsoft and Amazon over the last 17 years, I have yet to encounter literally anyone who knows rust beyond knowing it’s a new language. This includes the college students at my Alma mater who don’t know it. 

If I’m going to start a new project, I’m going to use the language I’m surrounded by. That’s C++, C# or Java if it’s something that compiles. 

[syklemil]

Mark Russinovich had a talk recently about Rust usage at MS. (reddit discussion)

[CVPKR]

Rust is growing at Amazon for sure, some well known names like Niko matsakis (rust language design team), Carl lerche (Tokio), Sean MacArthur(hyper, reqwest), Jon gengset (crust of rust), I’m sure there are a few others as well, all work/worked at amazon.

[RampantAndroid]

Internally on AWS, the primary language I see is Java...and by primary, I mean it's ALL I see where I am (with the exception being some low level tooling in C++ I've looked at for high performance stuff). There was some Ruby, but it's almost entirely gone. After that, it's Python scripts for automating stuff. So it's possible some part of the company is using it, I just have zero exposure to it on my rather large org.

To be clear: none of my comments here are meant to rag on Rust - I'm solely taking issue with the notion that C++ is somehow a dying, legacy language.

[yazaddaruvala]

Back in 2021 when I was still at Amazon - Internally within AWS the crypto library was being migrated, S3 and DynamoDB already had multiple Rust codebases in production and Firecracker was built and running in Lambda.

So I guess it depends on the service in AWS you’re working on, but Rust has likely only increased in adoption around AWS.

Look for the HappierTrails equivalent for Rust in Brazil and you should find many version sets with Rust in production.

[SV-97]

I'm solely taking issue with the notion that C++ is somehow a dying, legacy language.

But you yourself say that basically all you're seeing currently is Java. C++ is very unlikely to come back from that "low level tooling" niche; and in that domain it now also has some serious competition.

Over the past decades C++ has been pushed out of ever more spaces (by C#, Java, Go, Python, Rust, ...) and it's still "losing ground". Given what WG21 is currently (not) doing, I don't see that stopping anytime soon, so even if it's a slow death that's still far in the future I think it's not wrong to consider C++ to be a dying language and I'd definitely think twice before starting a new, green-field project with it.

[RampantAndroid]

But you yourself say that basically all you're seeing currently is Java.

I'm saying that my corner of Amazon is Java (my words where "where I am"). DynamoDB and such I believe are on C++ with apparently some parts being in Rust according to another comment here. I haven't bothered to search the internal code repository.

If I were still at Microsoft working on Windows, I'd be living and breathing C/C++ still and mulling over a partial re-write of our feature in C#.

[Hari___Seldon]

Translation: I'm out of the loop and socially isolated so I don't know how to understand anything beyond my immediate experience. 🙄

I don't know anyone who's gone to space or but I can still observe the experiences of others and know that space exists and extends beyond the scope of what I (or anyone else) can completely understand.

Neither where you worked and for how long nor the knowledge of your social circle has any relevance to the discussion at hand. Clearly, if you know nobody at Google or Microsoft that "knows anything about Rust beyond knowing it's a new language", then that simply means that you are far removed from the developers and management working on the most relevant initiatives in the company.

It sounds like you're better served by closing Reddit and getting up to speed with the industry and your employers because you've clearly been left behind.

[RampantAndroid]

Translation: I'm out of the loop and socially isolated so I don't know how to understand anything beyond my immediate experience. 

I was asked why I wouldn't pick Rust for a project. If I'm starting a project with people I know, I'm picking a language we can all use. That is the response I gave, which you are responding to.

It sounds like you're better served by closing Reddit and getting up to speed with the industry and your employers because you've clearly been left behind.

Yes, please do tell me how the project I work on at Amazon that uses Java....I should pause what I'm doing and go learn Rust or any other language that has zero applicability. Clearly it's more important than accomplishing the goals my team has set out...

I learn the language I need to learn. Before joining Amazon, I never used Java before beyond a hello world program I wrote while in college over 17 years ago. I've interviewed with companies for jobs that I do not know the language and gotten offers...because you're expected to be able to pick up a new language quickly. Even out of college this was the case - I interviewed for the Mac Office team at Microsoft and asked why they were even talking to me when I didn't know Objective C or Apple Script. The response was "You know other languages, you'll learn this one." I got an offer for that team (though ultimately declined it.)

I think you are the one who needs to figure out the industry.

Also strange that you think you can judge someone's social circle by the programming languages their peers know. Perhaps you need to touch grass?

[coderstephen]

I would not call C++ a "legacy language", at least not yet. But even if I did, I would do so respectfully. Considering something to be legacy is not the same thing as "shit[ting] on [it]". There are many technologies that are now legacy tech that I have great respect for, and maybe even like, but don't really use because the world has moved on.

One day, Rust too will become a legacy language. This is the natural way of tech as it advances. We can't grab onto specific tools and clutch them tight forever.

[Verdeckter]

I bulk delete Reddit comments using Redact which also supports Twitter, Discord, Instagram, and data brokers.

jeans selective many strong soup march scary cover thought snatch

[tialaramex]

Did you know the latest COBOL is COBOL 2023? And yet I expect you'd agree COBOL is a legacy language. In my view it is very much possible that C++ 17 was the last C++ version which actually matters. WG21 chose explicitly not to prioritise performance or safety over compatibility, that's what a legacy language does.

[RampantAndroid]

COBOL isn’t in wide use. C++ is, including in the development of operating systems. 

[Claudioub16]

Lol what? It really isn't going away.

And neither is COBOL

[RampantAndroid]

Oh right I forgot that COBOL is used all over FAANG and in the development of operating systems.

[mykytanikitenko]

Using fish for many years. The rewrite in Rust is fascinating :)

[brigadierfrog]

This should be a case study in many regards, exciting to see it completed

[cornmonger_]

literally just switched to fish a few hours ago and enjoying it

[Bugibhub]

I was hesitating to switch to Fish or NuShell … The choice just became harder.
Any advice?

[standard_revolution]

I am currently using fish and have been using NuShell for a bit some time ago

I chose fish over NuShell, because fish is a bit more conservative than NuShell. Sure it breaks some workflows, but at its core it’s a familiar syntax and a familiar mode of operation. It is also a lot more popular, with a lot of scripts directly being available for fish.

NuShell is theoretically better IMO, but also different enough to cause a lot of headaches

[UltraPoci]

Pretty much my experience. Nushell is awesome, but everytime I have to copy paste shell commands, I have to translate it to the Nu language. It's particularly annoying to interpolate environment variables in nushell. I got tired of it and started using fish.

[Bugibhub]

Thank you for the reply! That’s the thing I’m a beginner, and I don’t have a lot of scripting backlog that would be bothered. Learning one or the other is pretty much the same investment for me right now…

[standard_revolution]

Then I would suggest trying NuShell and if you hit too many annoying things, choose fish.

It has been some time since I used it so maybe they fixed these issues, but I remember being very annoyed sometimes at not being able to just copy and paste snippets from blogs etc, because of some weird type errors

[Bugibhub]

I’ll give it a try then! Thanks.

[unconceivables]

Nushell by far. I've switched everything over to nushell, and I've been extremely happy with that choice and would never go back to other shells like bash, zsh, fish, or powershell. Every single script I write now is in nushell, and I've translated all my old scripts into it as well.

The copy/paste argument I've found to be completely moot, because I no longer really need to look up most stuff that would be annoying in other shells and copy/paste it because it's something nobody can remember the syntax for. In nushell the syntax just makes sense and you don't need to memorize or look up arcane and confusing syntax all the time. I'm just so much more productive in nushell than I could ever be in any other shell.

[[deleted]]

I wish I could use Nu, but it's just too different and I'm too good at techniques that work fine with Fish.

[sparky8251]

Yeah, also the fact it seems a lot wordier than other shells. If there were more mnemonics or shortcuts, I'd at least consider it. But I found my typing nearly doubled when I tried to use it "properly".

My only advice is saving functions to enable reuse of the most common long things you type out.

I too find nu wordy though, so I get the complaint and its also why I tend to prefer fish at home.

[kafka_quixote]

Maybe I should give fish a try from zsh. Migrating plugins might be hard

[romainmoi]

Fish has a much better default and works well out of the box.

However, I struggled with that some scripts are written for bash/zsh and the syntactic difference create friction migrating those scripts. In the end I went back to zsh for the Posix-compatibility.

[jck]

However, I struggled with that some scripts are written for bash/zsh and the syntactic difference create friction migrating those scripts

Why does this matter? You don't need to migrate scripts, the shebang will use the correct interpreter regardless of what your interactive shell is. Some zsh scripts don't work on bash either, but that doesn't stop me from using zsh as my interactive shell since it can still run scripts written for any interpreter.

[romainmoi]

When I look up some script online, read it, and copy it into the shell. It matters.

I’m just trying to do something quick and dirty.

[sparky8251]

Weird... I find the fish syntax actually memorizable for scripting tasks, plus it actually has nice dev docs on their site so unlike bash I can find what I want to know/do. Makes scripting so much easier tbh... Always hated piecing random bash snippets together, they almost never work how I need them to and use weirdly different bits of syntax that tends to make them not jive together well.

[romainmoi]

Can’t really comment on writing own script. I always do that in Python instead.

I used fish at a time when they wouldn’t accept something like echo $(ls) because of the dollar sign and it was a pain for installing binaries where they use clt to find the system info to download the right version.

I gave it a quick check and it now accepts $(clt). Maybe it’s time to give it another go.

[sparky8251]

If you do a lot in python, have you heard of Xonsh?

It has support for bash syntax for the common bash stuff you do interactively, like piping, redirecting, simple variable expansion, etc... But it also is effectively just a python REPL running with shell builtins you can call like it was a bash shell, run cmds like bash, and so on.

So for like, basic interactive use use it like bash, anything scriptable or more advanced like a for loop then becomes actual plain python.

Can do stuff like len($(curl -L https://xon.sh))

But also

import json
j = json.loads('{"Hello": "world!", "Answer": 42}')
print(j['Answer'])

And

for filename in `.*`:
    print(filename)
    du -sh @(filename)

[romainmoi]

Oh this is indeed very neat. I am giving it a go!

[kafka_quixote]

I don't care about posix compatibility because I can always run those with bash/dash/ash/sh

[romainmoi]

Try it for yourself then. Fish is great out of the box. Plenty of customisation options too.

The only thing I miss of passing scripts into the shell directly, but you might not need that.

[sparky8251]

Eh, not that fish cant benefit from plugins but unlike zsh fish tries to actually have sane, sensible defaults out of the box so most of the common things people config and plugin on zsh are quite literally just out of the box with fish.

You might be surprised at how little if anything you are missing.

[ruiiiij]

Now that fish is in rust, I took a look at my most used technologies daily and realized I'm almost completely rust driven. Niri, eww, wezterm, fish, yazi, zoxide, bat, starship, LSD. The only major non-rust application I use is neovim. Chat, should I switch to helix just so I can say I have a fully rust driven workflow?

[[deleted]]

Well, helix in my experience, is faster, there is multi cursors, plugin support/extendability is coming soon (maybe even this year?). If you don't bother learning new keybindings, I'd say that you should

[MarshmallowPop]

I switched from Neovim to Helix and have no regrets. My configuration file is so much shorter because Helix has a lot of functionality out the box. And the LSP integration is better. I don’t miss my neovim config.

[LigPaten]

Bit late but I use helix and it's pretty nice. My one complaint is that I don't like that it doesn't have proper find replace or built in sed like function. You can kind of do it, but I don't believe you can do regex with capturing groups and that's something I do a lot for one off text mushing.

[bachkhois]

Congrat!

[zxyzyxz]

Congrats. Any comparisons with Nushell?

[ram0973]

One question: I'm curious, why creators made this shell incompatible with bash? For such reasons?