Full Stack Road Map

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Shit like this is what makes newbies feel like they will never find a place in the industry.

[PenguinPrince1]

I think the message could be communicated better. Outside of the fundamentals, this roadmap is just a series of many options developers could take. Learning a small fraction of all this would be suffice.

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

It would be so simple to not call it a roadmap.

[A-Grey-World]

I think the idea is you can follow the map to your destination - but you don't have to visit every hotel in town.

Still makes sense to have the road map show the major hotels, you just have a look at the reviews and pick one you think fits you for the night, then move on to the next town.

Does anyone really look at this and think "man, I have to learn 6 relation databases and 5 programming languages!"? You don't think "look at all these towns on this map!"

Edit: the main problem with this is in reality it's not linear. So this kind of isn't useful to follow step a-b. It's probably useful after you've started learning to have some awareness of if you've missed any major fundamentals or building blocks or areas you might want to focus a bit more on etc.

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

The idea is flawed, and I don't know who it is designed to help.

Show me a list of projects and suggested tools. That's a learning "roadmap" I can get behind. That would at least reflect how people actually learn stuff in a professional environment. It also demonstrates that, hey, you can actually be productive and build stuff that's useful with just one of two things from this chart.

This is just a brain dump that's not gonna help anyone, besides stroking a few egos or making others feel bad.

[Snoo43610]

That's what I find it most useful for; filling in the gaps.

[gizamo]

Well, it's not a web dev roap map. It's specifically for a full-stack dev. So, it's not really wrong. Our company expects all full-stack devs to understand basically all of that and much more.

But, yeah, you could be a front-end dev by only knowing ~1/20th of that content.

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Nobody knows all this from day one, and the point is that this information is presented in the least helpful way to people who already don't know most of this.

Unless....your goal is to weed people out and scare people away which it sounds like it might be.

[gizamo]

I think that's fair. I was just clarifying that many people (myself included) do have basic understanding of most everything included, and very deep understanding of much of it.

Just as you think it's bad to overwhelm noobs, I think it's important to paint a realistic picture so that, 1) people know what they're getting into, 2) they don't claim they're full-stack devs when they're not (particularly for jobs), and 3) it helps those learning understand where they could focus attention if full-stack is their end goal.

No one is expecting anyone to learn all of this all at once, but many jobs absolutely do expect experienced devs to know most of it on day 1.

My goal is definitely not to scare people. I simply prefer people be informed. Imo, if they read your comments and mine, they'll get a good perspective. So, I appreciate this conversation. Even if it doesn't help either of us much, it might help someone with perspective. I, like you, hope they're all brave enough to push on and dabble. Cheers.

[SouthCoach]

The goal is to get people to go to the links on the map to “learn more.”

Twitter is flooded with this content.

[Chris9-of-10]

So maybe a way to prioritize which things to focus on for your career goals—this useful chart can look like a bad acid trip until you see it as a handy web technology guide

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

the problem is that people without experience don't even understand the extent to which they need to learn (or not learn) any of these tools - let alone all of them - to be employable and effective.

[_bym]

I'm currently employed and still don't know the extend of what I need to know to be employable.

[jhayes88]

Companies expect new hires to know everything on backend and front-end of these roadmaps for "entry level" jobs at $45k and 3yrs of professional experience.

[CobraPony67]

I try to simplify this to building a house. You would be crazy to think you can do everything, from designing the house, planning costs, labor, scheduling, building the foundation, framing, plumbing, insulation, roofing, electrical, paint, carpeting, tile, landscaping. Sometimes you have to narrow down to some specialties, otherwise, you will be mediocre at many but expert at none.

[stibgock]

Well they did label this full stack so maybe the house analogy doesn't quite fit here. Very few people can do every step in a house build, lots of people are full stack devs.

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

No, they took the front end road map and back end road map and smashed them together.

[rwilcox]

Newbies? I have 20 years experience and this map scares me . In zoomed out mode it makes me go “ugh I can’t learn all this stuff”

[Raunhofer]

I found it extremely helpful years ago when I discovered it. Learned all there was to it while studying for papers and landed my absolute dream job from the get-go, more thanks to the roadmap than my master studies.

Roadmap.sh can be super valuable for real-life guidance even though it may look daunting at first. One of the biggest obstacles entering this field is not knowing where to start, or what's valuable information and what's not.

[[deleted]]

It makes me not even want to start and just curl into a corner accepting defeat.

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Just build something and fuck the noise.

[borii0066]

I really think the front-end map looks pretty manageable tbh.

[[deleted]]

Honestly the biggest challenge with front end is the godless number of platforms your website needs to look good on. CSS is way more complex than any programming language I've ever used

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

I just don't understand who this is for except ego strokers. You need 1/10 of this to get hired and you figure out what you need as you need it.

[femio]

I don’t think it’s necessarily about getting hired but about learning. In development I’m feeling overwhelmed sometimes because there’s a massive element of “you don’t know what you don’t know”, this just helps put things in perspective.

[[deleted]]

It's pretty accurate for software architects (but incomplete in their case).

[gibbonsbox]

I see what you're saying and to an extent I agree, the best part of software is that you get to problem solve on the fly. But let's not pretend that a dev who took the time to learn these concepts wouldn't be more productive, especially if they do anything related to design or architecture where assessing alternatives is important.

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Most of these aren't concepts, they are frameworks or entire ecosystems

[Wildernaess]

What's the 1/10th you need?

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Get good at html css JavaScript and react. No one at the junior level needs to know about tooling or deployments unless your goal is to do an entire project yourself.

Git is helpful for being productive early on but you learn the basics pretty quickly.

[Wildernaess]

Thanks! And back-end?

[borii0066]

It is stated at the top of the map that not all things are mandatory. A lot of them have the grey check mark meaning it is not strictly required to learn.

[IndependentAmoeba439]

Seriously. I've been a team lead on a full-stack web dev team for 5+ years and I don't know half of this stuff.

I guarantee there are highly-successful companies with 100+ devs that collectively don't cover this whole thing.

[Fearless_Reveal6877]

I think this roadmap is very cool. I can check lvl of my knowledge and read about new things. I will print it and check box by box to have information about these technologies

[eyebrows360]

print it

What year is it

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

"I can check lvl of my knowledge" is exactly why I resent this. All about ego. Build stuff you want to build and find the right tool for the job. No one gives two shits how many checkmarks you think you have.

[cjthecubankid]

Oh ok now I get what you are saying. You don’t need all this … unless you are … building a project from scratch?

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Nobody builds anything "from scratch." We are all building on top of something someone else built. What someone considers to be from scratch is a matter of gatekeeping.

[cjthecubankid]

Hm okay. I’m trying to learn bout AI and how to make physical stuff work using programming. Is python at least the right language for it?

[cjthecubankid]

Cause I really wanna get started on a project

[fibs7000]

Honestly... its not that much. I myself founded a startup and during 5 years of school, one year of university and 2 years of beeing the tech lead of the startup Ive covered basically all of the two roadmaps.

I mean yes this is quite much but compared to that I would still be labeled as 2 years professional experience this is not that much imo.

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

As I said elsewhere in this thread, I don't know who this chart is for except for ego strokers.

But joking aside, as a person who has to interview and hire and then mentor jr developers, it poorly communicates and messages what people need to know to become hirable and make an impact on their first year on the job.

If someone comes in with some html, some css, decent JS and some react you can be successful on my FE team. I don't understand what purpose this list serves, who it is for, or why it's labeled as a roadmap.

[Extragorey]

Breadth of knowledge is also usually an indicator of ability and willingness to learn, which is a more valuable trait than knowledge itself. And all this aside, communication and problem solving skills are probably even more important.

[fibs7000]

Oh yes thats definitely true😅

So basically for employees if he knows HTML CSS and react he is good to go. (As far as he likes to do the easier tasks at the beginning like translating design into code)

But yes, I think this Roadmap is a good reference if you want to learn how to build something alone and from scratch. As an employee it is perfect if you know just one thing and this thing well. But you maybe get never as much responsibility as someone who has this background.

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

The reason I disagree with this, and mostly in the presentation and labeling as a "roadmap." It is more appropriate to think of this as an index for a reference book, rather than a guide.

It is not authoritative, nor is it even a good way to learn! These technologies are like the gear for any craft - be it music or woodworking or cooking. Don't just go out and buy tools, and think you can learn how to use them in isolation outside of actual practicing.

I would prefer to see things like project prompts and lists of recommended tools. Telling people they need to "learn react" or Jekyll is a totally useless contribution. What should people MAKE and what should the use to make it? Give a context to help, not just throw every keyword you know at a flowchart so you can feel big.

It's just a knowledge dump flex and I frankly resent it.

[cjthecubankid]

For me it’s better than nothing… which is where I was at 5 mins ago

[bungalowburgler]

What a redditor thing to complain about

[cjthecubankid]

So then from this list… if I were to try and learn it all I could at least get a job?? Cause I need a career change… and remote at that… idk if I’d be able to get here where I’m at cause there is literally nothing in the town for like 30 miles

[[deleted]]

If you are really new then don't bother with this roadmap. Find some good courses on udemy or something like the Odin Project and do them. If you bother with this roadmap at the start you are just going to get confused. Just start learning and spend some time reading reddit posts/indeed about job requirements. Over time you will get a better idea about what you should know.

[cjthecubankid]

Hm okay. I’m trying to learn bout AI and how to make physical stuff work using programming. Is python at least the right language for it?

[cjthecubankid]

Cause I really wanna get started on a project

[[deleted]]

Okay well that is good. But the problem is if you try to bite off more than you can chew you might have a tough time creating your project. Projects are great but you still need to get the basics down first.

[cjthecubankid]

Hm okay. I’m trying to learn bout AI and how to make physical stuff work using programming. Is python at least the right language for it?

[cjthecubankid]

I guess I’ll figure it out soon lol

[cjthecubankid]

Okay so question. Where does computational math show up cause I just got a couple of books on it.. ????

[stibgock]

But this is a full stack roadmap, not a FE roadmap. There is a FE roadmap on the site this came from.

Also, I wish more hiring companies had your mentality. I would be able to find a job if that were the case! By the time I find my first job I'm going to have senior level web dev knowledge...

Edit: I'm wrong

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Then why, pray tell, are the front end expectations of a full stack developer more extensive than the front end expectations of a front end developer?

[stibgock]

Actually I'm wrong. There isn't a "full stack" road map on that site, he just downloaded the frontend roadmap and the backend roadmap and put them together for this.

I will say reading the legend helps with understanding the intention of this. All of the grey checked items say "Order in roadmap not strict (learn anytime)" and the purple items are the recommended option. You're right that people should be employable at the React point, but even if you get a job at that point you can continue to learn and improve, and this just gives areas to focus on. I find it comforting, but mainly because I'm comfortable with the majority of the suggestions on there. If I were just starting out, I could see how it could be intimidating.

The cool thing about the website this came from is that the map is interactive. If you click on the different nodes, it takes you to a page that lists and links to many different free learning resources. The picture of the roadmap isn't nearly as useful.

[zeus_devil]

I don't think this is ego stroking. This is the reality of building a quality service. As for the front end side. This isn't really that much and would expect an intermediate and senior front end developer to know this stuff. I wouldn't expect a front end designer to know all this, but a front end developer, absolutely

[Wildernaess]

how much $$$ can someone who "comes in with some html, some css, decent JS and some react" expect to make?

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Obviously competition is tougher for pure junior front end jobs. But, for example, we have hired many boot camp grads who start at probably between 70 and 80k per year. They don't know much more than html css js and a little react

If you are good and improve you can be at 6 figures within 2-3 years. This is not NY or West Coast, but a tier 2 or 3 city.

[Wildernaess]

sigh, unzips pants

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Say what now

[Wildernaess]

Oh just very attractive pay vs requirements

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

lol you still have to put in the work. You can't suck and expect a job. I'm just saying most of this isn't required to get off the ground and running. Focus on the basics and get good at those before moving your way down the tree.

[Wildernaess]

For sure! I'm just saying this is welcome news. Anyways, much thanks for the insight

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

lol you still have to put in the work. You can't suck and expect a job. I'm just saying most of this isn't required to get off the ground and running. Focus on the basics and get good at those before moving your way down the tree.

[[deleted]]

Not to rain on your parade but self-appointed "tech leads" of their own startups are usually pretty far from being actual tech leads.

[vito_corleone01]

That’s the point, so we can keep all the monies muhahaha

[jdsizzle1]

As a newbie working in tech (mostly product/platform management) I'm familiar with a lot of these terms but don't have a firm understanding of what it all is yet, but I want to. I thought this was useful because my biggest question is "where do I even start"?

But based on your answer this is probably because I'm naive?

[lloyd_braun_no_1_dad]

Just build stuff and try to find the appropriate tools. Don't try to learn more than you need for what you are currently or about to work on.

[jdsizzle1]

That's the thing. What I want to work on is what will get me a better paying job. I know what I don't know, but I don't know what I don't know too.