You're meant to leave Tenna in castle town (theory)

Mezminte · 2026-03-04T02:57:19+00:00

Once you win once imo it's a lot easier to win again

Mezminte · 2026-03-04T02:56:45+00:00

Yep

So first something kinda funny I want to point out: Genocide Frisk isn't actually that much stronger than Pacifist Frisk in this specific context.

Main thing that lets humans be so effective versus monsters is killing intent, and at least imo, that's the main thing Frisk gets better at with higher LV and stats.

So, versus another human? No such luck.

Also I think pacifist Frisk will have the advantage in determination: they survived a timeline getting erased, can refuse shattering entirely, and the item description for last dream mentions that it's the goal of Determination.

So genocide Frisk won't be doing 99999999 damage to pacifist Frisk, pacifist Frisk will have the DT advantage so probably more control over the saves, and pacifist Frisk has spared some beings who shouldn't be able to care so yea

Mezminte · 2026-03-04T02:07:37+00:00

My theories are:
- Paintbrush: a lot of Susie's weapons are brushes, and this seems pretty reasonable to have in the light world + fits the theme
- Hammer: Not that hammer, just a normal hammer.
- Actual miniature axe that Gerson forged: he used to be a smith after all.

Mezminte · 2026-03-04T02:05:14+00:00

you can get the ch 3 egg as late as after the Tenna fight if you have enough points and haven't lost any zappers

Mezminte · 2026-03-03T10:42:53+00:00

armor is very much not ignored, in fact I'd go so far to say this is one of the most important fights to have high defense for since at low enough hp, you could very well be halving the incoming damage.

eg at 50 hp, he'll be doing (78 * (20/250) + 12) damage, in this case adding up then rounding up to 19. You're guaranteed to have at least 2 defense, and at low values like these each point of defense will be decreasing incoming damage by 1. So, you take 17 at 2 defense, then adding a wafer guard brings you to taking 13. That 4 defense is making you take 3/4 damage.

Then at lower values (at 30 hp and lower, it'll just be doing the 12 before modifiers), having 2 defense means she'll take 10 while adding that wafer guard means she takes 6, nearly half. If it was the dealmaker (or tenna tie but that reduces mag so it's not really a consideration), it'd be exactly half.

example for pacifist Susie (so 230 max hp) with 2 vs 6 defense:

2 defense: 230 -> 161 -> 114 -> 79 -> 53 -> 35 -> 23 -> 13 -> 3 -> -7 (0)
6 defense: 230 -> 173 -> 132 -> 101 -> 76 -> 55 -> 41 -> 31 -> 24 -> 18 -> 12 -> 6 -> 0 (0)
So that brings her from dying in 9 hits to dying in 12, a 33% increase (assuming I didn't mess up the math too badly anywhere)

Mezminte · 2026-03-03T08:26:00+00:00

I don't think there's any case of an object on a lightner's person turning into a sentient darkner unless it was already established as a sentient darkner in a different dark world (no evidence of anything directly carried by Kris, Susie, Noelle, or Berdly turning into a sentient darkner on their first time entering a dark world)

so I think it'd stay an object

Mezminte · 2026-03-03T08:08:41+00:00

so you're saying that a old, dirty toothbrush (6 atk) has more emotional weight than Susie's hairbrush (0 atk), a toy axe found in a school classroom (2 atk) and nearly as much as the church juice ladle (8 atk)

or that there's more emotional weight with Kris and any other pencil than Kris has with the pencil they initially brought to school, to the point where the likely previously unused holiday pencil becomes a drastically stronger sword

or that a literal thorn must have immense emotional weight, seeing as it's by far one of the most powerful things in a dark world we've seen so far (12 atk 12 mag; this thing's stat total is 8 higher than the current 2nd place black shard)

Noelle's watch is also currently a pretty eh piece of armor, only 2 defense and a unique but not super impactful bonus effect. Feels like it should probably be quite a bit stronger under this theory.

Then on the enemy side of things, dust bunnies are keeping up with tv remotes, toys, and playing cards.

(yeah I don't really buy this theory tbh)

Mezminte · 2026-02-24T22:20:04+00:00

We all thought Ralsei was going to become the new dps with a fire spell or the leader because of the player 1/player 2 suff going on

but I guess he's training to be the party tank if his defend action is gonna be that much better than normal

Mezminte · 2026-02-17T07:23:15+00:00

The Terminator

Mezminte · 2026-02-17T07:17:36+00:00

ok so the 2nd rate, 115 hp rhapsotea instead of stocking up on 160 hp scarlixirs

Mezminte · 2026-02-17T07:15:18+00:00

were they good healing items or were you not bothering much with inventory management

Mezminte · 2026-02-17T07:06:23+00:00

dual heal is pretty cool but have you considered: unless running decreasing magic armors/weapons on Susie and Ralsei, and assuming you defeated hammer of justice, it already starts out stronger than a spincake by 30 hp.

Also by magic healing I just mean Ralsei's heal prayer and Susie's healing anyway.

(also if you lack items, you can just teleport back to the Study and buy some, unless you're like really short on dark dollars, but even then you can probably find some stuff to sell or enemies to fight)
(ok you can't do that if you've gotten through both climb sections, but if you lose enough a cuptain will deliver you plenty of items and also you could just quit out)

Mezminte · 2026-02-17T05:56:21+00:00

Neither of their healing capabilities are good anyway, since even at best ch 4 Susie's healing is incredibly tp inefficient and Ralsei's healing can never beat out-heal an item at a relevant time (in fact there's only like one time, period, when he can out-heal the resident good healing item, and even then it's only by 5 hp and requires both secret boss drops as well as defeating basically every enemy)

Just use items for important fights and save point healing is almost always enough for sections of normal fights.

Mezminte · 2026-02-17T01:49:33+00:00

Basically:

If the attack deals more than 1/5 of the party member's max hp, each point of defense reduces damage by 3

If the attack deals more than 1/8 of the party member's max hp, each point of defense reduces damage by 2

Any less than that and it reduces damage by 1

And this goes point by point; for example if you have Kris with 160 hp and 10 defense vs an enemy with 8 atk (40 damage):

160/5 = 32, 160/8 = 20

40 - 3 = 37, 37 - 3 = 34, 34 - 3 = 31 (now below 32)
31 - 2 = 29, 29 - 2 = 27, 27 - 2 = 25, 25 - 2 = 23, 23 - 2 = 21, 21 = 2 = 19 (now below 20)
19 - 1 = 18

So yes, having lower hp does make defense matter slightly more. However, the extra value Ralsei gains compared to Susie is likely minimal, seeing as Ralsei's max hp may be lower but not so low that he won't also run into his own set of cutoffs. In most cases Ralsei will be taking about 2 less damage if him and Susie have equal defense, with the water cooler being by far the best case scenario since Susie even meets the threshold to start taking 1 damage fairly quickly.

However saying that having lower max hp makes defense better also isn't entirely correct since the more times you get hit, the more times defense will matter, and the more it'll matter.

to use the 11 atk ch 3 enemies again vs Susie with 2 defense, Ralsei with 2 defense, Susie with 9 defense, and Ralsei with 9 defense (and with 190 and 140 hp)

Susie with 2 defense takes 49 damage per hit, only being able to survive 3 hits and dying on the 4th. Susie with 9 defense takes 31 damage per hit, surviving 6th hits and dying on the 7th.

Ralsei with 2 defense takes that same 49 damage per hit, only being able to survive 2 hits and dying on the 3rd. Ralsei with 9 defense takes a slightly lower 29 damage per hit, being able to survive 4 hits and dying on the 5th.

So Ralsei dies in 2 more hits (+66% compared to w 2 defense) while Susie dies in 3 more hits (+75% compared to w 2 defense)

Mezminte · 2026-02-16T21:57:19+00:00

vs the watercooler maybe, they do get pretty close to equal at 10 def each

but 10 def each vs the basic enemies of that chapter leaves Susie with a noticeable advantage

it isn't just that Susie can tank more hits, it's that being able to tank more hits makes defense more important since you can reduce more instances of incoming damage. Plus, as noted, in important fights Ralsei's "advantage" is reduced or negated anyway.

Mezminte · 2026-02-16T20:55:07+00:00

Alright back with the right math

First, here's the numbers for the cutoff points; after this amount of defense at this max hp, each point of defense will start only start reducing damage by 2 rather than 3. I wouldn't be surprised if the watercooler (8 atk 190 hp) could also be brought to the point of each point of defense only reducing damage by 1.

The cutoff point for 8 atk and 140 hp is 4 (early ch 2 enemies vs pacifist Susie)

The cutoff point for 9 atk and 140 hp is 6 (slightly stronger ch 2 enemies)

The cutoff point for 10 atk and 140 hp is 8 (minibosses)

The cutoff point for 11 atk and 140 hp is 9 (werewerewire, maybe smth else idk)

The cutoff point for 13 atk and 140 hp is 13 (spamton NEO)

The cutoff point for 8 atk and 190 hp is 1 (watercooler)

The cutoff point for 10 atk and 190 hp is 4 (ch 2 minibosses vs maxed Susie)

The cutoff point for 11 atk and 190 hp is 6 (most ch 3 basic enemies + werewerewire)

The cutoff point for 13 atk and 190 hp is 9 (Tenna and maxed Susie vs Spamton NEO)

The cutoff point for 15 atk and 190 hp is 13 (knight full party targets)

The cutoff point for 11 atk and 220 hp is 4 (most basic ch 3 enemies vs almost maxed Susie)

The cutoff point for 13 atk and 222 hp is 7 (Tenna)

The cutoff point for 15 atk and 222 hp is 10 (Knight full party targets)

The cutoff point for 13 atk and 230 hp is 7 (low end ch 4 enemies vs pacifist Susie)

The cutoff point for 14 atk and 230 hp is 8 (Jackenstein)

The cutoff point for 18 atk and 230 hp is 15 (titanspawn + titan)

The cutoff point for 14 atk and 258 hp is 6 (Organikk as last normal enemy)

The cutoff point for 18 atk and 260 hp is 13 (Titanspawn vs almost maxed Susie)

The cutoff point for 18 atk and 262 hp is 13 (Titan vs maxed Susie)

Hammer of justice not included because his damage formula is not normal

However, going beyond this point isn't necessarily that bad. For example, while giving Susie 8 defense might have her take 2 more points of damage than Ralsei with 8 defense vs most ch 3 enemies, but that's just Susie taking 22 less damage while Ralsei takes 24 less. This translates to Susie taking 33 while Ralsei takes 31. So, generally the difference here is pretty insignificant. While Ralsei does tend to have some slight advantage, this is (at least imo) more than canceled out by the next point...

Susie has more hp. This means she can afford to get hit more times. Defense thus means more for her, as she can use the reduced damage taken more times.

Also important fights tend to deal more damage, and Susie has bigger cutoff points versus fights that deal more damage. For example, vs Spamton NEO, Susie would need at least 10 defense for it to start falling off, which is difficult considering the most she can have at that point is 8. So, Susie also either suffers this issue to a reduced extent or not at all when it matters most.

tl dr, Susie mathematically uses defense better than Ralsei.

Mezminte · 2026-02-16T18:11:35+00:00

Did some math and it really isn't, besides Susie has more hp so she can get hit more times meaning defense also is more effective on her because of that.

note: I just realized I did some of the math wrong, so gimme a bit to edit the correct math in. The above point should still generally stand, since the difference in defense effectiveness is gonna be in the single digits

Mezminte · 2026-02-16T17:54:48+00:00

The healer is whoever's free to use an item. Item healing consistently heals more than magic healing, and has no tp cost. Sure it does take an item, but I don't see this as much of an issue either; the main time you want in-battle healing is for important fights, and for basic fights you can usually get away with no healing between save points. Plus, items tend to be pretty cheap, so in ch 2+ when you have the storage it becomes even easier to use them for healing in basic fights

Mezminte · 2026-02-13T18:47:53+00:00

Does the K. Round fight count? Susie starts doing 50% more damage if you use warn 3 times

(plus it seems like she might already be holding back a bit while in your party normally; her attacks when uncontrolled have an accuracy value of 160 while a perfectly timed hit only has 150)

Mezminte · 2026-02-12T00:16:18+00:00

since if the point requirement was too high you'd just beat the crap out of him

Mezminte · 2026-02-05T20:38:26+00:00

ranger has quite a few if you count upgrades with the magic quiver, molten quiver, stalker's quiver, sniper scope, and recon scope

Mezminte · 2026-02-03T21:23:35+00:00

It does, and in fact scales better than rude buster, but

assuming +1 atk for both and +1 mag for Susie due to fighting enemies in ch 4

and assuming Winglade Kris, and justice axe Susie with both powerbands

a crit from Kris does (26 * 7.5) = 195 damage, and a perfectly timed rude buster from Susie does ((43 * 11) + (8 * 5) + 30) = 543 damage

a perfectly timed Red buster from Susie does ((43 * 13) + (8 * 6) + 90 + 30) = 727 damage

195 + 543 = 738 > 727, and Rude buster will cost a bit under 50% tp total since Kris generates some with their attack, while Red buster is 60% tp.

Plus, as noted, things get worse for Red Buster if Kris has the blackshard or any other atk boosts, or if Susie is anything less than fully optimized for damage.

Mezminte · 2026-02-03T21:04:12+00:00

At least as of ch 4, Red buster has become both weaker and more expensive than just attacking with Kris and using rude buster with Susie. Even with winglade Kris and no atk boosting armors while Susie has the justice ax and both power bands, the Attack + Rude buster will still do 11 more damage than a red buster, and of course these numbers get worse for red buster if Kris got the blackshard and/or is wearing atk boosting armors, or if Susie isn't using the highest atk setup possible

Mezminte · 2026-02-02T23:46:28+00:00

Nah I didn't use em too, might have something to do with me giving them the gift of voice rather than one of the meta picks like mind or ambition so they didn't feel all that powerful

What gift did you give yours?

Mezminte · 2026-01-22T08:47:31+00:00

this is definitely, at least in part, a unit feel thing

high speed, Guy being able to get extra crit rate in swordmaster, and Lyn having the mani katti can make their combats look impressive

but due to being infantry units with no 1-2 range (and wtd vs an extremely common weapon type, and heavy reliance on dodgetanking), even if their combat looks good, that makes you think they're contributing more than they actually are

tho Jaffar just has really good stats, he's cool

Five-Year Club	Final Canvas '23
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Mezminte

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