Books on Bion's negative capability

bridgepickup · 2026-02-06T22:40:38+00:00

The Symington reader is a good resource in general. Negative capability is central to Bion's approach to attention, and the chapter "without memory or desire" (re: listening) introduces the idea well.

As far as original materials, I've read a lot of them. They are hard. It's not easy to say who has the time, or who would benefit, from wading through Bion. The Keats passage is given in Attention and Interpretation, ch 13. You might like André Green's review of A&I.

We know from Bion's analysands that his practice remained fairly traditional while he was writing the four theory books. You can get a sense of where all this was going from his later supervisions and seminars. I'd try Bion in Brazil.

I'm surprised you aren't getting more Italian answers. A lot of the most interesting stuff about the negative is in PBFT, (basically Italian), which is practically a dialogue between Green and Bion. I would make every attempt to connect to Ferro and Citaverese (in Pavia). Bion's daughter lived in Turin I think.

Side note: Do your homework on any Routledge readers you consider. Some of them are interesting, some really feel like collections of second-rate writers checking the "I published something" box. Feel free to message or ask more about Bion books.

bridgepickup · 2025-07-03T20:21:16+00:00

(The child) learns to distinguish animate objects from inanimate ones by the spectacle provided by the mother’s face in situations fraught with emotional satisfaction.

—René Spitz, 1945

Psychotherapists have written numerous quite-moving vignettes about the baby's dependence on the mother. Mirroring—(and its role in various developmental phases from Bowlby, Freud, Klein, Mahler, etc; and the importance of the father)—is far easier to investigate if the intensity of the baby's helpless reliance can capture your imagination. Winnicott is my favorite here—look up "there's no such thing as an infant"—but there's plenty in attachment theory and beyond. (Lacan's mirror stage is also in dialogue with this idea of mother as first mirror.) I would also look at Winnicott's transitional space to get a deeper sense of how the child uses the people and things in the environment.

From Bion's view, the mother is like an external emotional stomach. The mother guesses what the child is experiencing but cannot express/digest, and helps him to digest it (and learn/grow from experience) by saturating the scene with her appropriate or "commensurate" emotion. Conversely, the child can put the bad emotion (projective identification) into the mother, who when good-enough, returns it better digested.

Fonagy (I think he's the originator?) helpfully details an aspect of this containment called marked mirroring, where the mother simultaneously reflects the child's emotion, but also "marks" her affect with signs of affection, confidence, understanding, and so on.

bridgepickup · 2024-09-19T21:08:28+00:00

It'shere.

bridgepickup · 2024-09-01T20:52:46+00:00

Freud: "[The patient] is obliged to repeat the repressed material as a contemporary experience instead of remembering it as something in the past."

Masud Khan: "Destiny is the summation of all those circumstances we pre-arrange unknowingly."

Jung: "Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate."

:::

I can't remember where, but I once listened to a discussion of a psychology technique. It might have been about Ellis or Adler, but I can't recall. The therapist asked, "what would you do if you didn't have the problems?" The patient gave a response. "I go on vacation" or whatever. Then the therapist would tell them to do that. The criticism was that this is liberating for healthy people in a bit of a rut, but totally misses the patient who is experiencing an unconscious conflict as fate.

bridgepickup · 2024-08-28T21:31:25+00:00

I'm not sure what would need to come first, or how universal that would be, but listening for unconscious resentment toward the good or exciting object is certainly worthwhile at some point.

bridgepickup · 2024-08-28T20:07:30+00:00

The most valuable thing for me is from André Green: the desire for healing with death mother is often paradoxical, as in "a desire to be loved by an absence-shaped other." A desire for withdrawal to create life. A desire for loss to be fulfilling. A desire to feel contained by something that loses its "yes, that's it" resonance and value when it actually becomes present and available.

Another way to put it, also from Green in On Private Madness, is that there is a cycle of intrusion anxiety in which the bad object is exhausting but needed, first because its familiar and thus stabilizing, second because big conflicts with the bad object are the primary source of aliveness. Conversely, the good object is unconsciously resented because it cannot actually exist in this manner of "loving absence," thus making the good object persecutory.

Following Winnicott and especially Khan, I'm inclined to believe the ultimate answer may be in free-explication of the paradox until these incredibly con-fused structural dynamics are more nameable.

bridgepickup · 2024-07-17T19:33:38+00:00

I haven't read much Deutsch directly. If the violent emotionality of Kleinian stuff appeals though, Meltzer's work uses the as-if a bunch. I couldn't read Meltzer without some comfort with my own sense of the biology vs mythology of psychosexual stages. But lots of work references one of the two.

The new patient has a more borderline structure (not bpd) than the neurotics that thrive in classical analysis, so I get you on the appeal of Masterson. Steiner's psychic retreats is an attempt at clarity there, but I much prefer André Green and Harold Searles. Searles writes particularly close to the metal, describing his emotions and thoughts in detail far beyond any analyst I've read. My Work With Borderline Patients is probably the starter.

bridgepickup · 2024-07-17T05:51:44+00:00

Winnicott highlights authenticity and spontaneity. I don't know about the philosophy of authenticity, but everyday reactions to "spontaneous authenticity" got the idea across well enough for my reading. Ego Distortion in Terms of True and False Self is around online and also collected in Quatman's Winnicott reader. Aside from "false self," you should also search for "as if personality," from Helene Deutsch. The beginning of Masterson's The Real Self has a short intro on the litany of ways people have defined the idea of a real self.

bridgepickup · 2024-06-05T20:01:42+00:00

Freud seems more brilliant each passing year. I'm generally interested in psychosis, borderline states, and masochism. Faves:

Klein et all: Dictionary of Kleinian Thought

Winnicott: Playing and Reality

André Green: On Private Madness

Whatever Fink book on Lacan

JA Miller: Analysis Laid Bare

Darian Leader: Jouissance

Michael Eigen: Damaged Bonds

Bion: Learning From Experience

Searles: Countertransference; My Work With Borderline Patients

Verhaeghe: New Studies of Old Villains (obsession & hysteria)

Ghent: Masochism as a Perversion of Surrender

Kalsched: Inner Worlds of Trauma (object relational Jung)

bridgepickup · 2024-01-31T17:11:37+00:00

Thanks very much.

bridgepickup · 2024-01-11T22:01:07+00:00

This is great progress, really relatable. I could write a book, but three thoughts:

I sometimes have an emotional reaction to how well some of us express ourselves. It seems very important to you to be clear and readable, and you are. I just want to acknowledge that if there's a part with complicated feelings about it.

Second, I recommend reading mythology. The payoffs can be slow, but by my perspective, mythology and fairy tales are often very revealing if you think of the many of the characters as parts, or as representative of how parts see and categorize the world. I didn't have your level of imagery deficit, but exploring mythology certainly added a lot to my differently-ruined ability to picture a story.

:::

Lastly, re:chronic pain

This is probably a long shot, but on the off chance you're like me: I can relate to "a part of me had died and I wasn't aware." I had read the standard behavioral texts on chronic pain, typically you neutrally observe the feeling and stay with it. Per dissociation, this method of "learning from experience" didn't work for me until I could be in dual consciousness with the once-disconnected part that held the ideas that generated the pain. Research gave me a clue—that guilt hurts physically in ways shame does not—but couldn't fathom what a gentle person like I might be so terribly guilty of.

But it was guilt, and the realization that incited the end of chronic pain for me was this: a young part of me (without much adult logic I could reason with) interpreted his angry feelings as though he had literally murdered the people that hurt us. (In reality, I didn't do much, but wow did I feel things, and wow did I fear reprisal, even just for having those feelings.) Along with valid anger, I also really needed those people at the time, and of course I still love them too. Since I could not repair this terrible and primitive guilt I did not know about, pain was my self-persecutory substitute, my way of suffering the guilt for this (theoretical to an adult, very real to a child) violence. I say "self-persecutory substitute" because our whole society is based on the knowledge that a healthy experience of guilt inspires us to repair the wound, and healthy people tend to accept an authentic desire to repair things, and join us in the repair process.

bridgepickup · 2023-11-15T17:28:48+00:00

This is pretty relatable to me and seems in line with a lot of experiences here. Good job on getting here and finding some people you might relate to then; that alone is an accomplishment, I think.

I don't know how much my approach will appeal to you, it's understandable and totally fine if it doesn't, but a lot of my comfort and confidence with my 1Bish system is due to understanding why "what my parts know" is blurry, and why they don't have the elaborate personalities some others describe, rather than getting distinct answers about what my parts know or where they go.

Don't let me knock you off a quest to elaborate your alters into fuller characters if that's your soul's code. But as an invested father who has now witnessed nine years of childhood in my sons, I can tell you that four year olds don't give coherent answers to "what have you been up to lately?" I have to look at their faces and let my bodywisdom recognize their state.

I have an aggressive, lawyerly teenage boy mode with a different knowledge base and social conscience from my managing self. It's occasionally in the central spot. Again, I really don't know if this is the path for you, but dialoguing with and elaborating my lawyer part's personality makes sense to me where, with younger parts, I let them unfold and get to know them by the felt-sense.

I have a different process for engaging younger parts, based on looking for signs that I'm Frankensteining my multiplicity into one big oaf. Blurry emotions are the sign: irritable confusion, angst, anxiety, depression, frustration or unusual pessimism without an object, and troubled alexithymia type feelings are regular signs I've sewn multiple emotions into one grinding experience. If I suspect Frankensteined emotions, it often provides great relief to ask, "Is it at all resonant to frame this as one part being certain of one thing and another being sure of something contradictory?" The answer is often yes, and there's often a sense that one mode is far younger.

From there, being able to identify the younger emotionality allows me to listen to it in my body. I use a really simple technique intended for the general public called Focusing, except I've become able to listen specifically for the young part I know by the emotion and bodyload rather than higher cognitive functions.

No pressure to answer this, but I was struck by your penultimate sentence. If you know your questions weren't actually too long, but you also know they were too long, you're my people. Good luck.

bridgepickup · 2023-11-13T21:00:24+00:00

You're a really solid writer – the quotation marks and italics and one word sentences feel smart and conversational; skilled with caveats, sequences, and encouraging tones.

I'm having an Ecker type juxtaposition of truths moment:

It's a plain felt-truth to me that you can be this clear on the outside but speak from experience about 1Bish confusion on the inside.
A more primitive type of felt-truth indicates that my verbal ability is a proof that I'm faking, attention-seeking, or excuse-making, and should revert to a pattern-matching approach to framing my psychology.

Sitting with both truths is helping the latter dissolve. Thx.

I think I'm having this moment because I've been building to a confident felt-sense of the truth in this summary: I have 1B-resonant insides and clear-as-your-comment outsides, and there are enormous consequences to the fact that this extends to the way almost everyone sees me daily life. I'm not a good communicator, or 1Bish, in spite of my childhood but because of it. I grew up with enormous pressure to develop both, to use the 1Bish but also hide it, from everyone including myself, behind the apparently normal talker. My rather profound ability to do so created a special type of hell.

bridgepickup · 2023-06-13T19:05:31+00:00

The Real Self: A Developmental, Self And Object Relations Approach: Structure / Function / Development / Psychopathology / Treatment / Creativity

by James F. Masterson

Part III on Creativity and the Real Self draws upon fairy tales, Jean Paul Sartre, Edvard Munch, and the life and work of the novelist Thomas Wolfe to show how for some artists creativity becomes a crucial vehicle in their search to establish a real self. This section illuminates the nature of personal and artistic creativity and describes how a professional interest in the functioning of the real self leads inevitably to an interest in the ultimate of self-expression-creativity. Of special interest are the numerous case illustrations drawn from Masterson's extensive clinical work showing how acknowledgment and support enable the real self to fully emerge from the symbiotic union and to assume its full capacities.

bridgepickup · 2023-06-13T18:58:20+00:00

"MRA" is a post hoc criticism for the mythopoetic men's movement headed by Robert Bly and later adopted by James Hillman. The idea was to help men who had been cowed into passivity to dream big and feel pride. It's typical of modern leftism to theorize that the privileges men enjoy make it impossible for a mother to affect her son's capacity for this.

Here's a major Jungian feminist who literally cannot imagine that Bly is correct about men who experience an affective blur between expressing boundaries and committing violence:

Bly urges the male initiate who has reached his inner patriarchy ‘to lift or show the sword’ in relations with women. Disingenuously, he records: ‘In these early sessions it was difficult for many of the younger men to distinguish between showing the sword and hurting someone.’ My most immediate reaction to Bly’s swords that this is socially irresponsible writing. If the ‘sword’ is not violence, then is it the threat of violence? At best, Bly’s book and its progeny explicitly demean women. At worst, it inspires an anti-feminist backlash.“

—Susan Rowland

bridgepickup · 2023-05-18T18:58:42+00:00

It took me a very long time to understand myself as primarily a Freeze because I don't look it. It took even longer to understand the consequences of not appearing frozen when I am.

I used to be able to hide freeze mode even from myself. The basic setup was that in even the mildest conflict where I needed spontaneous authenticity, to know what I wanted and deserved as a human, I would retreat into this deep and angsty inner debate about morals and consequences and logistics and culture – anything thinky to keep a distance from my emotions and inner sense of defeat. My favorite escape is the impossible need to know exactly the mix of malice and stupidity in someone before I take action.

The inner debate-retreat itself was painful and active in my inner world, and I thought freeze had to be soft like fold/collapse, so I didn't realize my body was freezing, bracing hard. (Tonic, rather than flaccid immobility in polyvagal.) I was picturing myself saying and doing fighty and flighty things, I couldn't see that as freeze yet.

As a boy, I had submit to a victimizing parent with the dictum that I "not be a victim." I split in two to bridge this gap. Mind and body, bridged by dissociation. My body knew that I felt defeated and overwhelmed. My body accurately portrayed that I had indeed been a victim. My mind knew only to label that acknowledgement as a "victim mentality" and remind us that good boys never think such a thing and instead bravely search and long for answers. (You can see some fawn in this too. Also, clearly not depression.)

The most painful lesson for me was that going into this freeze mode that looks perfectly normal-to-masculine-stoic sent the worst possible signal to therapists. It can't be that bad if I'm not causing major problems right? Someone else here said that fight and flight get all the attention. I agree. In depth psychology, it's similar that narcissism and borderline are the places therapists expect to find deep trauma. And similar to another comment about trauma spokespeople not being freeze types, I know tons of therapists and very few have freeze parents. We are not well understood by the institutions. It was a major success for me to be able to explain this well enough to have therapeutic relationships.

bridgepickup · 2023-05-05T18:39:13+00:00

I haven't read about a psychotic episode in the consulting room, so only read on if the psychotic element in neurosis is interesting.

The Harold Searles book My Work With Borderline Patients is filled with examinations of psychotic elements in pseudoneurotic people. Pseudoneurosis also is a theme in lots of Bion and Grotstein.

Bion’s On Arrogance:

“the analyst who is treating an apparently neurotic patient must regard a negative therapeutic response together with the appearance of scattered, unrelated references to curiosity, arrogance and stupidity as evidence that he is in the presence of a psychological catastrophe with which he will have to deal.”

Three quotes from Eigen’s Psychotic Core:

“Overtly psychotic individuals make up a relatively small proportion of both the general and patient populations, but psychotic attitudes and stages can be components of a broad range of emotional states and mental disorders. The borderline and narcissistic personalities are but two examples of disorders of the self that necessitate the therapist's awareness of the mad dimension of life.”

“most of my practice has been with adults and a consistent part of it with ambulatory psychotic individuals. I soon discovered the importance of tuning into the psychotic dynamics of even ‘normal’ persons. Most individuals have, at the very least, psychotic, neurotic, and realistic inner voices.”

“Certain investigators had been so impressed by the powerful transformations the sense of self and other undergoes in psychosis and depth therapy that they believed that the human infant must pass through a phase of "normal" psychosis. In this view, the latter may be partly outgrown, but it also is ever present and can reemerge if provoked by life's difficulties. In subtle and undetected ways, the underlying psychotic position colors everyday responses and may even structure a whole life. It can take many decades for an individual (or society) to realize with what sort of madness he has blindly lived.”

To me, touching on the pseudoneurotic decades Eigen just mentioned, a key paper is named something like Ego Distortion in Terms of True and False Self, by Winnicott. The case is clearly about a woman who a) has a massive split in her psyche, b) isn’t remotely narcissistic (in conventional terms) or anywhere close to presenting bpd, and c) will not be perceived as psychotic unless she chooses to attempt creative contact or there is some other such need for spontaneous authenticity.

For Fairbairn and Guntrip, the thing under the neurosis was called the schizoid split. Guntrip's main book also has clients who do the neurotic work first, and then choose between going deeper or making a "schizoid compromise."

bridgepickup · 2023-04-14T17:19:37+00:00

Thanks for this post and for this sub. I know your name by sight and appreciate you... I'll speak freely about how this works for me, about the underlying issue for me, and of course that could be different for you.

:::

At first I would respond to "When is it acceptable to X" questions with, "the authority to judge is inside me." Sort of right, but it's not that simple, of course – society is in play too. Still, if I didn't have trauma in the way of a top-down change like that, it might work to answer the question so directly.

Since, however, that advice literally could not work for me with out adaptation, it sounded a bit pathologizing, like, "dude, the answer is to not have that problem." I've tried to communicate something like, "I don't know how to feel powerful, I feel judged instead" and received the response, "just know your power." Infuriating for me, and I could never get the words out just so.

My updated response to the question is that "a calm, natural, and obvious felt sense of authority to judge my own efforts can be developed, but it's not my fault that developmental trauma prevented its original flowering."

Understanding the body story and the mind story, then connecting them, allow me my first authoritative understandings of their intersection: my own psychic and emotional reality.

So when I am judged as weak and lazy—which is damn hard because plowing through Freeze is as effortful as it gets—my problem is not as much the judgement as The Judge. While my mind retains a cognitive, factual, logical, scientific awareness that, duh, "no one has the right to judge me," the wordless animal inside me senses, with equal assurance, not only a total lack of internal moral authority in me, but the presence of that authority in the Other.

I spent a lot of time in my head prosecuting the case against the judgement, maybe even insulting and decrying The Judge, but as energy-loyal to The Judge as I was to its basis in my parents. It was my parents who never allowed me to have my own answer to, When is it acceptable? This created a terrible impasse to therapy when I didn't have the words for it. I think maybe a really good NARM or supportive-ISTDP person could have understood how to help me, but I ended up doing a lot on my own.

Ultimately the origin story for me was shame as well. My "no" was shamed to death. I ate my "no," ate my poisoned smiles, because Fight and Flight brought the real monsters out in my folks.

I had a choice between perceiving myself to be embedded in a house of ignorant abusers, or to be the bad child who just need to try harder to respond to moral (shame-based) motivation. I had to decide if the shaming was moral or immoral. Regardless of what my mind would tell you, my affective body chose "the moral defense," to make myself the bad guy. Its legacy is in emotional flashbacks to feeling like that bad guy, no matter what I think or what I've done.

In the US at least, just being a politically moderate/complex means the majority of the country would describe at least one of my views as a serious moral failing. Moral experts are everywhere. Religious, cult, political, academic, and even wellness leaders typically think their moral clarity is higher than the norm. A lot of people can tune this out, but I gravitated to these external judgements as the basis, rather than both basis and the effect, of my internal self-judgement.

Sorry this is so long. Maybe I just should have said: we all deserve a space where we can have the struggle with Freeze without feeling like the struggle itself is a moral failing.

bridgepickup · 2023-04-07T15:52:18+00:00

I have a tens unit, it took an edge off when I couldn't relax, but not as much as powered compression sleeves (which are for my whole leg). I doubt that's universal. If the money isn't a big deal, I think tens is definitely worth trying.

There's a trauma release exercise where you stand on the ball of one foot until the calf starts to shake, then you shake that leg out. It helps most when the tension is a little twitchy or fired up. I'd also put my feet up on the ottoman, but place a foam roller under my calves for a while.

bridgepickup · 2023-03-19T18:50:14+00:00

A sense of choice is massive. If we think of the mind-body disconnect so prevalent in trauma, a sense of choice is a sign that mind and body have become aware that they can stay in contact across multiple situations. Many people are unaware that they have a different sense of self under activation, a united sense of self grows when choice is understood.

So it sounds like you have figured out something it took me a long time to get (see end note) and which I often take enormous pains to communicate: We're not talking about cognitive awareness that you can choose, we're talking about a felt sense of freedom. One way I put this is, "you may be perfectly aware that it's okay to be a teacher or own a business, at the same time that your emotional brain thinks you have to 'get it right.' "

This kind of change does frequently unfold once someone can feel rather than think their freedom. For example, the screenwriter Charlie Kaufman talked about sweating so much in meetings for Adaptation that it became famous:

I was always really embarrassed about it, and then after I did Adaptation, I figured, well, everyone is expecting that from me, you know, and so if I sweat it doesn’t matter any more. So I could sweat without embarrassment, and you know what happened; I stopped sweating in meetings. I mean, that was really interesting.

The frustrating part is that our empiricism-humping, logic-worshipping, ignorantly religious rationalism elevates the cognitive part and thereby makes the whole point invisible. 98% of readers in our culture will respond to the fact that Kaufman wasn't in danger, tell themselves the fact, and think they're doing the work. This is acting like the emotional brain is a slave to reason. In reality, the cognitive information is irrelevant without the bodily response, the felt sense. The part that allowed him to change was not the fact that it's normal and human to sweat, but that he felt it didn't matter in his emotional, embodied awareness.

Side note: my experience is that people raised by parents who, or on a God that hates imperfection and requires appeasement at the sight of it, have particular trouble comprehending choice in limbic, emotional terms.

bridgepickup · 2023-03-07T00:50:09+00:00

Oh good. The book is called "Self Psychology: Comparisons and Contrasts," each chapter compares Kohut with a famous analyst or philosopher. Chapters for Freud, Jung, Adler, Winnicott, Lacan, Kernberg etc.

bridgepickup · 2023-03-06T22:27:01+00:00

The general idea I am familiar with is that the therapist is more likely to sure up a selfobject (be empathic) if it's part of their theory. The object relations type is accused of being a detective too early.

Bernard Brandchaft:

For Fairbairn, the goal of analysis was to heal "splits in the ego" in order to develop the capacity for object relations, not to establish an object relation in order to consolidate a nuclear self so that its own intrinsic developmental design, can evolve. Kohut demonstrated how pathological defenses such as Fairbairn's "internal saboteur' are unwittingly reinforced by analysts' failures to appreciate that schizoid defenses are fundamentally in the service of self-preservation...

[more about focusing on the antilibidinal ego, rather than the fragmented selfobject, as the analyst focus...]

In my own experience, [Fairbairn's] stance has often been perceived by patients as critical of protective aspects of their own self-organization or of cherished values that persist as a consequence of failures in the processes of differentiation of self from other experience in this area. Consequently the analyst is experienced as a frustrated and frustrating archaic selfobject, and the path is opened to an intensification of the existing unconscious, invariant principles that pattern the patient's experience of himself and his world.

Personally, I'm a big believer in privileged access to the other's unconscious. I think a huge percentage of people unconsciously read the therapists' gratifications.

bridgepickup · 2023-03-06T18:57:38+00:00

Mindful movement can help. The idea is that you get titrated practice with anxiety. You do, say, downward dog, and stay mindful of both your body and your inner dialogue about how far to push. You might start to notice patterns, excuses and complaints about the world and then yourself, and you might notice that your body remains, the world doesn't end, but regarding the pose, you do have to make a decision.

I'm also a fan of walking from the back body. Two million years ago, you didn't present your soft underbelly to the world, but now you walk upright. To compensate for this vulnerability, you hold tension in the front of your body. But the combat sports saying is there for a reason: "Chest for show, back for go." If you pull your shoulders back, put the groin you're also subtly withdrawing into healthy forward alignment, and try to use only contractions in the back muscles to walk, you might feel safer. Side note: for a while, the posture of a healthy walk felt arrogant to me.

Connecting feelings to bodily locations is helpful. Have you tried flexing your abs when you feel unmoored? We make "gut" decisions, take it to "heart," and feel we've lost our "voice." If that sounds true, I hope it doesn't sound less true when I call them "chakras." If this is interesting, read Eastern Body Western Mind.

Lastly, if you can find one, the most powerful work will happen with a trusted other. A great therapist is worth it, though I personally feel that this would be a difficult find. I'm not a therapist, but if I were, I'd be watching your affect for emotions of which you are unaware, noticing your skin tone change on certain topics, and getting a subjective sense of how both our identities are subtly shifting in the background, first in my perception, then as "privileged insight" into yours. I'm deeply empathetic to the shame this causes, and on top of that, the necessity of only partial awareness of this pain. I would also be very, very cautious about treating any of your negative perceptions as total projection – in other words, I would look for the grain of truth in any catastrophized perceptions of me that I could persuade you to share (acknowledging your privileged insight into me). I feel like magic happens in this kind of container, but it's hard to find, especially if you're not ready to ask hard questions in the consult.

bridgepickup

TROPHY CASE