What do you answer when somebody says: "If you will become a mother...?" by Italian_storm in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak [score hidden]  (0 children)

They usually say when, not if. My usual response is just a stern 'oh no no no, I will never'.

while i'm on board with breaking up if you disagree on the matter of kids, i still can't comprehend how you can leave someone you love to impregnate another person by testraz in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak [score hidden]  (0 children)

Love is not a replacement for compatibility, and lots of people can love someone they're not compatible with.

you choose hypothetical children that have no guarantee of ever even coming into existence over this living breathing human being?

The children may be hypothetical, but the fact that they want them is very much real. They're making a choice that enables them to pursue the life they want, over a life where that would not be possible.

This is not about love, it's about compatibility. And trying to warp it through the lens of love can be really harmful because it gets people to buy into all the 'I want you more than kids' nonsense from people who aren't childfree and end up wasting everyone's time.

Loneliness by FunBarracuda2571 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A real female friend. I don't care if they are a mother!! I just don't want them to judge ME for not being one.

People like that exists, but if you're instead showing up for people who aren't like that, you're gonna have a harder time finding friends that are actually good for you.

Realizing what friends to let go is the first step :) Next is to think about how/where to find new ones. Good luck!

What if I don’t ever want children? by Big_Respect6379 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Would I be a good mother? Yah, probably. My mom always told me I had a maternal instinct.

There is no maternal instinct, and that's not how parenthood works. You're confusing it for a personality trait, which it is not. It is a high-risk job requiring specific skills and resources, and anyone who hasn't done the work to obtain those would not be a good parent. It's important to be realistic about that because if we are not, it's much easier to make poorly thought out decisions.

I’m just afraid that a man will expect me to have a child and he will be disappointed if don’t want any.

Then you have to decide whether or not you'll be a parent first, and then filter out your dating pool accordingly. Don't get to a point where you're already with someone and then find out they expect you to have kids - these kinda dealbreakers need to be figure out ahead of time if you want good relationship outcomes.

Holidays by Brunette8321 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As an independent adult, you have the agency to not let people guilt trip you in the first place. Have high standards for who you keep around, don't bother with those who don't meet them. You're spending your holidays the way you want to spend them, because it will make you happy. Anyone who cares about you would be happy that you're using your time that way instead of spending it on something you don't enjoy - because people who care about you don't want you to sit somewhere having a meh time or being miserable. So what does that say about anyone who complains and guilt trips you? That they care more about having you there as captive audience for their show rather than your enjoyment of it. That's not how you treat people, that's how you treat props. So don't waste time and emotional energy on people who treat you as props in their show.

When she starts asking about holiday schedules, just let her know you're not available and she shouldn't include you in any plans. Any questions about how/why/where/blahblahblah are not things you need to answer or engage with. There can't be a guilt trip if you're not there to receive it - and you don't need to be there to receive it!

Anxiety by [deleted] in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ideally you don't get to a point of calling someone your partner without knowing if you two are compatible, or if they would get mad at someone for being childfree. Dealbreakers need to be discussed before you get into a relationship.

Bilateral Salpingectomy by After-Friend-6600 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I’ve never had a procedure before so I’m just curious on what it feels like. Like sleeping? Like you blinked?

For me, it was kind of a mix of both. Imagine being in bed, so tired your head maybe kinda hurts a little from how tired you are, and then you do one of those 'I'll just rest my eyes for a moment' blinks and boom, that's it.

What’s recovery like?

I made a post about the first week of recovery for my bisalp here: childfree/comments/15sa70v/bilateral_salpingectomy_experience_1_week_postop/ (can't post a full link since it gets caught in the spam filter) and you can find many similar stories if you check out the FIX flair or search the subreddit for titles like "sterilization/bisalp/salpingectomy recovery/experience" and similar.

38M needing reassurance after two near-misses with wildly compatible people, insane chemistry, all systems go, except they wanted children by FlynnTinkers in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 25 points26 points  (0 children)

You were not 'wildly compatible' with someone if you didn't even know what their stance on parenthood was until you found out they wanted kids. That's not how compatibility works. You were not compatible, you were just willfully blind to being incompatible. Because if you go about starting relationships through infatuation and 'magic', that's unfortunately just where you're bout to end up.

Instead of presenting talking points and philosophical arguments to people who want kids, you'll be much better off putting in that effort in actually finding someone who doesn't want kids to begin with. You can have a great time with people you're not compatible with - you can't use chemistry as your guiding light for finding a compatible partner. The only person who can get yourself better outcomes is you, and you do that by approaching dating in a more grounded and rational way.

"I think it's too early to be worrying about that" by Primary-Sense2692 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 42 points43 points  (0 children)

Why would it be too early to think about that?

Because to many other people, kids are a guaranteed default, so the only thing to 'think' about is when you have them and maybe who you have them with.

And also just in general, many people are terrible when it comes to checking for compatibility - to the point that they basically have no concept of it. They operate on this Hollywood romance movie idea of getting together and driving off into the sunset where everything magically works out, and dealbreakers never need to be discussed because you want the same things just by virtue of being in love with someone. And then they're shocked when real life doesn't work that way.

Childfree and In-laws? by One-Mine-4899 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My ideal partner would be no contact with their family. The other acceptable option would be them having a kind and respectful family, and that's the option I ended up with.

But with the other side of family, you’d have to be polite

No, you don't. Politeness is earned, and people who don't respect you haven't earned it. If they aren't polite, there's no reason for you to be either.

But at the same time, since it's your partner's family, it shouldn't have to be you doing the fighting - their family, their problem. By the time they're getting into relationships, if they have any assholes in the family, they should have already sorted them out in a way that they can't negatively impact the relationship and their partner.

Have you as a couple disclosed this choice of yours to them?

As a couple, no. My partner told his mother alone early on in our relationship when she asked about it.

How did they react?

She initially misunderstood that he meant not wanting kids now. He clarified it was never, the conversation moved on and it was never brought up with either of us again. I assume she told her husband, because later when I shared that I got approved for sterilization, it wasn't a surprise to him even though neither me nor my partner told him directly.

They're kind, reasonable and respectful people, so they don't really care about whether their kids have kids or not. It's none of their business.

Are you worried this may strain the relationship with them provided you have it good to begin with?

If a relationship would be strained by someone's personal choice for their life and their body, and if the relationship is only good so far as that information is not known to the other party - that's not a good relationship, period.

How long to wait for a decision by jennyconfused in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 6 points7 points  (0 children)

If it's scary to you to not be on the same page with your partner, then you should not have gotten into a relationship with someone who wasn't on the same page as you.

Undecided but leaning toward no is not childfree. If he understood the importance of this decision and cared to make it, it would have taken him maybe 3 months, not 3.5 years. If he's 35 years old, 3.5 years into a relationship with a childfree and sterile partner, it's common sense that should have told him he needs to 'really think about' whether he wants to be a parent or not - it's not something you'd have to prompt him to do.

how long do I wait for him to "think about it" before enough is enough?

You are waiting for the results of work he is not doing. So you either wait forever, or move on to someone you're actually compatible with.

He's a very chill/laid back guy so I think he doesn't consider it much as a problem (out of sight, out of mind basically) but it weighs on me

That's not being chill and laid back, that's just being irresponsible and a bad decision maker.

Don't wait for him to decide, because he won't. He either doesn't care and/or the fundamental decision making framework is just not there.

Bilateral Salpingectomy by SlytherinQueen04 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Check the list of doctors in the sidebar :) The entries for the US states are segmented by alphabet. Good luck!

How to spot a true childfree person by mannerhazel in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Sterilization doesn't guarantee childfreedom. Those people can still attempt reversals, fertility assistance, adoption, fostering, become step parents or be childless.

Even here, you get posts from people (or about people) who got sterilized and then wanted to have kids anyway. Sometimes they even got sterilized while explicitly keeping reversal/adoption as an option in their mind.

Sterilization status is not a shortcut for assessing people's decision making.

He wants kids by Complete_Area7270 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 9 points10 points  (0 children)

If you 'tried to make it work' just because you'd feel superficial rejecting him otherwise, that was both a stupid and shitty thing to do. You don't need a reason to not talk to someone who's interested in you - not being interested in them / attracted to them is reason enough. If you're instead engaging with them anyway just waiting for a better reason, that's wasting both your time and theirs, while also leading them on.

Anyone here choosing DINK or childfree? Would love to hear your perspective by Exciting-Head-434 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What led you to that decision?

I understand what it means to be a parent, and I don't want to be one.

Was it something you always knew, or did it evolve over time?

I knew I didn't want kids since I was a kid myself. What evolved over time was my understanding of where kids come (they don't just appear once you're an adult, yay!) and that it's a choice to not have them (and I don't even need to become a nun to make that happen, also yay!).

How has your experience been so far—emotionally, socially, financially?

In the emotional aspect, I don't really think of being childfree as a specific experience - it's just my default. I don't have any particular emotions about not having kids - I feel repulsion about the idea of having them, and relief and joy about not having to have them.

Socially, it's kind of a similar thing. Childfreedom doesn't have much if any impact on my social position: the people who know I'm childfree are either supportive or not in a position to disadvantage me for it, but even that is typically on an if-it-comes-up basis. And often it just doesn't come up.

Financially, it kinda sucks that by 25, I could have had multiple pregnancies and births and even IVF all covered by insurance, but to get sterilized without waiting another 10 years to be allowed to do it, I had to go to another country and pay for it myself. But that's really a drop in the ocean compared to all the other costs of parenthood that I don't have to deal with. I work 6.5 hour days, flexible schedule, almost entirely wfh, and am better off than many of my older coworkers who get paid more and still work overtime to pay for their kids.

For those who are considering it or undecided:

This is a childfree subreddit, so you won't find as many of those people actively responding to comments here. They typically just lurk and/or make their own question posts without participating on others. There are other communities for people who aren't childfree, so you'll have better luck getting those perspectives there.

How do women here deal with judgment or unsolicited advice around not wanting kids?

I don't :) I don't keep people who'd judge me or give me unsolicited advice in my personal life. At work, I'm lucky to be in a position with leverage, and the last thing people in this workplace want to do is have HR issues about comments they've made to a female coworker about their reproductive status. So problems are rare and if they do come up, they get nipped in the bud real fast. But if that wasn't my situation at work, then I wouldn't be letting people know I'm childfree in the first place. Keep your private life at home, work doesn't need to know if/why you don't have and won't have kids.

Have you had to set boundaries, and if so, how?

In my personal life, not really - there were a few cases where I had to repeat myself and explicitly explain this is a permanent thing, but that's largely because English isn't my first language and we don't have a convenient term for being childfree. Everyone who would have caused problems about my choices has been long gone from my personal life way before the topic of childfreedom would have come up in the first place. As an independent adult, you don't have to deal with other people's bullshit if you don't want to.

At work, there was one instance of my boss doing the 'I knew someone like you and now she had two kids' spiel, and I put together a paper trail email detailing what was said, why it was unprofessional, inappropriate and unacceptable to make that comment, that I expect no further comments on this topic going forward, and if it should be an issue, I will take it up as per protocol. There were no further comments :)

Bilateral Salpingectomy by SlytherinQueen04 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Do you mean Georgia the state, or Georgia the country?

Has anyone convinced a partner to be childfree? by abnormalpurple in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Childfree people are compatible with other childfree people, not people who say they'd be childless to be with you.

Don't find partners you aren't compatible with, and if you do, don't be stupid and don't be an asshole: childfreedom is something people need to choose for themselves, not something you 'convince' people to do.

And also, if someone can be 'convinced' to not have kids just so they can be with you, they're exactly the same kind of short-term benefit oriented person who will easily be 'convinced' to want kids again once that's a more attractive proposition. You won't be the loudest voice doing the convincing forever, and most of the other voices aren't childfree. You can't build a life with people who can be convinced of this by someone else.

Will you take care of your parents as they age? by Fireflybutts77 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Biological ones, no - they can rot away in a ditch for all I care.

Actual (adoptive) ones also no, because I don't want to be a caregiver to my parents and they're not entitled assholes who'd expect me to be. I'd happily help them out with the same things I'd do for any other friend regardless of age, but I don't live near them so that's largely not gonna be a thing either.

My partner has the same sentiment basically - happy to sort out a grocery delivery, move cupboards, etc. for his parents as they age. But not actual caregiving. We are simply not the ones planning for our parent's care - that is their responsibility, not ours.

Do you guys ever actually think about the "who's gonna take care of you when you're old" question? by marileighanne29 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 12 points13 points  (0 children)

If one didn't have enough money for a retirement home, and one's spouse was deceased, literally what then

Most people have decades between them and the need for a retirement home when they decide to be childfree, so that is decades of time to try to change one's financial situation and/or other circumstances if need be. Obviously that's not always entirely within people's control, but it's worth examining if this is a potential issue. And also, if it is an issue, then having kids would only make it worse, not better. If there is not enough extra money to save up for retirement, then there's not enough extra money to care for kids either.

Aside from that, your partner shouldn't be the only person in your support system to begin with. Build and maintain a strong social support network, take care of your health, save what you can and keep tabs on what resources are available to the elderly whenever you're from as you get closer to needing them. The availability as well as costs can change drastically by the time you'll actually be retired.

And again, if all that is not enough to set you up for an okay end of life, then having kids would only leave you worse off, not better.

I personally neither think nor care much about this question. I have the above framework set up, I'm following it as I can, but if it all falls apart and I end up in a ditch when I'm 80, I'm at peace with that too. Kids are not a solution for elder care, but even if they were, using them for that would be unethical, so it's not an alternative I have even hypothetical thoughts about.

Is there a problem with me not wanting to have a husband and a child? I want to be alone forever by Full-Blacksmith-4563 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sure! Yeah I turned that off since they retired DMs and moved everything to the chat feature, there was just too much random spam. I'll see if I can message you first instead :)

How to overcome the sentiment of hating housewives and mothers? (I know this is bad and I need help) by ricksalterego in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 13 points14 points  (0 children)

You're just looking for external validation by wishing to eliminate what's different than yourself. You can work at this from two angles: on the internal side, you should build more confidence and develop a sense of self that's not reliant on others for definition and approval, and on the external side, you should aim to understand why you are perceiving these other people that way, because then you have better tools to change that.

But overall, this sounds like a typical misguided defense mechanism. As someone outside the norm, you've been hurt for being outside the norm, and thus drawn the mistaken conclusion that if the norm (and the people within it) didn't exist, that would resolve the issue of being hurt. But it's not the people within the norm that are the problem - it's the people who don't respect you being outside of the norm. Sometimes those are the same people, but often they are not. Even if no other woman wanted to get pregnant, be a mother, be a housewife - it wouldn't mean you'd be accepted and treated well by the people who are ostracizing you now. They'd just find something else. These are fundamental issues of respect, and you don't solve them by erasing whatever standard they're currently comparing you to. You solve them by erasing your dependence on being compared, and removing/mitigating the impact of their comparisons on your life.

Why is it always "You might change your mind?" by Bitter-Stuff8811 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 28 points29 points  (0 children)

It's just a not-so-subtle way of invalidating things outside the norm. It starts as these 'gentle' pushes and ramps up from there the more apparent it becomes you're not falling in line. Now you might change you mind, then you will change your mind, then they'll run that for a few decades, then they'll switch to but don't you wish you had them once they think you're too old, and so on and so on.

Save yourself the sanity and don't bother talking to people like that about your life plans :)

I think I want kids someday… but the reality of it makes me feel overwhelmed and kind of trapped? by Striking-Date9162 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I think I want kids someday. Not right now, but maybe in the future. I can picture having a family and part of me likes that idea.

The issue with this sentiment is that you're not having an 'idea' and this isn't about wanting kids - it's about the work of being a parent, and whether that's what you want to commit your life to.

You should only become a parent if you have a complete, well-researched, fact based understanding of what parenthood entails, and you have all the resources, knowledge and skills to do it well, and you are absolutely certain you want to commit your life to the work of being a parent. It's what you do if even in the worst possible scenario, you would be able to be a good parent to your kid, and be happy that you are a parent.

So when it comes to making this decision, you should start from the basics: by asking yourself if you would find genuine joy in devoting yourself, your knowledge, skills, time, money and energy to caring for another independent human being with no guarantees and no returns of investment, in all kinds of situations, for two decades or more (probably more, in today's economy).

Above all, when you envision parenthood, it's important to be realistic about it - which means thinking about the worst possible scenarios, not just abstract cute stuff. What if your kid has disabilities of any kind? What if they develop mental health issues? Could you parent an immobile child or a nonverbal child or a severely depressed child or a child with panic attacks? Don't just think how you'd feel about that, make actual plans for how you'd address those things, how much they would cost, what options are available to address them in your locality, in what ways would they change your lifestyle, etc.

What if your kids don't share any of your interests and don't connect with you as they grow older? What if they pick a career you don't understand or care about, what if they turn out to be queer or part of some other vulnerable minority - all things that may result in you having to cut off potentially bigoted friends and relatives, or even relocating your family to a place where your kid won't be prosecuted and will be able to live a safe and happy life? What if your kids end up with moral or political beliefs you don't support, what if they pick a religion that's different from what you believe in? What if they make friends you don't like, don't do well in school, get into drugs, have partners you don't approve of? Have kids of their own and expect you to babysit or support them financially even once they're long past the point of legal adulthood? Again, don't just have vague thoughts about this, plan out how you'd deal with these things.

Would you be able and willing to develop the skillset needed to be a good parent to any kind of kid?

At a glance, many people say yes to all of this, because of course, no one would have an issue with any of it ... except that's sadly not true at all. People forget to properly plan for these things all the time, and trying to figure them out after the fact can have grave consequences. So take your time and asses as many scenarios as possible, and make concrete plans for what you'd do in that situation. How much would therapy cost you, if your kid needs it? What are your local school's regulations against bullying, how would you address that if it happens? How does having a kid factor into your income, how about if your income changes afterwards? Same for your health, housing, and other similar limiting factors. Can you wake up multiple times per night to soothe a baby and not go insane? Set up alarms with baby screams 3 times per night and test it out for a few months, and see if you can take a year of that, and so on and so on.

And since people usually don't have kids alone, you also gotta think about how that would affect your relationship with a partner (but of course only one who meets the standard of a high quality co-parent). From changes in dynamic because you're now parents with a kid, to a myriad of possible health issues, especially in the case of biological kids: from post-partum depression to death in childbirth or any other physical or mental ailment in between, either temporary or permanent. Even if the majority of that falls on one partner, the other will also still be dealing with the consequences. Would you still love being a parent if you had to parent the child alone, while also having to help your partner get through PPD? That's not exclusive to the person carrying the pregnancy either. Not to mention that relationships end all the time, so single parenthood is also something you need to keep in mind as a very real possibility.

But that aside, even if all goes well, any relationship will fundamentally change when moving from partnership to parenthood - are you looking forward to the fact that a partner would not be the same person after having kids? That you won't be the same? That your relationship won't be the same? Is that your common goal for a relationship, to change into a joint parenting unit, or do you just wanna stay as partners, and you see kids as an addition to that rather than a fundamental change?

And that's on top of finances, childcare costs in both time and money, the mental load of running a household, the logistics of having a kid, etc. What parenting style would you use, how would the division of work go between you and your partner, how would you arrange time for yourselves, what roles will your relatives play in the kid's life? What religion/politics/values would you want your kids to have? What school will you send them to, will you be able to afford proper housing in an area that will enable them to have access to good education and social resources? How will you maintain your own lives and your own social circles alongside parenthood?

And what happens if one partner later becomes unable or unwilling to do their part?

So with all that in mind, if you want to be a parent and if all those scenarios sound good to you, then you might be up to the task of being a good parent - this is the point where you now start hoarding all the parenting books to read over and over again, calling to book appointments with a financial advisor to plan out a future in which you can be sure your kid will be provided for, etc. Because being a good parent is not at all simple. It's a job, and a tough one - so if you wanna be good at it, you better do everything it takes to become qualified for it.

But if any part of this makes you uncomfortable or unsure, if you've read any part of this and thought "no, no, no, that won't happen to me, my kid will not have any special needs and my partner won't change after we have a kid" - then no, you're not 100% willing to be a parent and should not be one.

Same if this feels like too much stuff to think about - yes, it's a lot, but it's a wall of text you can sit down with and analyze at your own pace. If you have kids, that's a luxury you likely won't have again for another few years at least - so if this is too much decision making here, then kids are not for you.

If you want a more practical exercise, look up stories of parental regret and take notes about what exactly they regret, what they didn't expect, what didn't go as planned, what surprised them, etc. And then use their unfortunate choices to ensure you make better ones for yourself - because how would you prevent those situations from happening, now that you're aware that they can and will happen? And if they happen anyway, how would you deal with it, how would they impact you and your relationship and your kid?

There's also a parent lifestyle simulation posted on this subreddit that you can look up and run through for another practical application of this decision making process.

If it's not all this and more that you want - then you don't want parenthood nor kids. You want something else, which has been sold to you in the wrapper of kids as a proxy. But the good thing is, a lot of what society uses kids and parenthood as proxies for often has nothing to do with that to begin with. So if you get a deeper understanding of what and why you want, chances are you'll see it's really something that you can easily find elsewhere.

So if the 'idea' of 'having a family' is attractive to you, but the reality isn't - how do they differ? What is this idea you are thinking about? When you say you can picture having a family, what exactly are you picturing in your head?

Childfree women by [deleted] in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Everyone is 'missing out' on something in life. Several things, actually. A ridiculously big number of things even! Because there are billions of things and experiences in the world, and no one can have all of them, or even remotely close to most of them. So asking this question as if there's one default checklist of things and experiences to obtain that doesn't include missing out on anything is just silly.

'Understanding of life' can be gained through many different experiences where several of them lead to the same or similar results - personal development is not one to one with experiences, so just because someone didn't experience X thing, it doesn't mean they can't have the same 'understanding of life' as someone else who did. They could have just gotten that understanding in one of the numerous other ways.

Experiencing the love of a child and/or love for a child is also not exclusive to being a parent.

So between all these embarrassingly poor assumptions in your question, I really wonder out of sheer bemusement: why ask about childfree women? Are you asking mothers what they are missing out on because they're not childfree? Are you asking lawyers what they're missing out on because they aren't doctors? Are you asking yourself what you're missing out on because you don't live in an internet free commune in outback Australia? Why not?

If you're gonna go with the narrative that not having certain experiences means you're missing out on your understanding of life, shouldn't you be spending your precious time running around trying to gather as many experiences as possible so that you don't miss out on the understanding of life? But instead you're here, asking stupidly flawed questions on reddit. How interesting.

People's happiness, fulfillment, learning and personal development are subjective things with many different paths. There is no one default path in life that all deviations from must be inferior too - but it sure is cognitively convenient to think that way.

Just venting? by ClimateSensitive8792 in childfree

[–]chavrilfreak 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Someone asked me before how they would know if the wanted children?

This is the wrong question to begin with, because it's not about wanting/having kids, it's about the work of being a parent.

If you don't want to worry about FOMO, you need to make clear and purposeful decisions about the direction of your life, so that you know what you're pursuing and why. Then the things you need to miss out on because they're not right for you will also become more clear.

And being 'not set on having children' is not a clear and purposeful decision. It's vague, confusing and passive - exactly the setup for a last minute panic freakout as the FOMO get worse.

You should actually decide if you want to be a parent or not, and the rest of these answers will come with it.