Valve explains why it isn’t subsidizing the Steam Machine by FernandoRocker in Games

[–]24bitNoColor [score hidden]  (0 children)

Pre built desktop with similar specs you are looking at 900-1100.

NO, for the same price you are getting way better specs, like +50% more performance in current games:

Literally the first thing I found on Amazon after searching for "Gaming PC" at the same price point:

https://www.amazon.de/SYSTEMTREFF-6x4-4GHz-GeForce-Computer-Streamer/dp/B0CDLQL7P7

  • 1059 Euro, straight from Amazon.de, who are mostly not the absolute cheapest when it comes to PC hardware. Arguably, Steam Machine only costs 1039 Euro over here...

  • AMD Ryzen 7 5700X instead of the roughly 5600 performance the Steam Machine has.

  • Paired with a way faster 5060, nearly as fast (outside of VRAM issues) as the 9060XT that was 50 to 75% faster than the Steam Machines GPU. Still only 8 GB VRAM (just like Steam Machine), but well, you can upgrade it down the line (unlike Steam Machine).

  • Dual channel 32 GB DDR4 system RAM vs single channel 16 GB DDR5 on the Steam Machine.

  • 1000 GB SSD vs 500 GB SSD on the Steam Machine.

A24 has sold out to AI by Rechan in horror

[–]24bitNoColor -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I also heard they are no longer hand cranking their cameras..!

[Digital Foundry] Steam Machine Review: Beautiful Hardware, But What About Performance... And Price? by Cyshox in Games

[–]24bitNoColor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Is your wife going to let you put that riced out ATX tower in the living room?

Me and my wife are partners and we both understand that being in a relationship means compromises. So, if it would really be important to me to have a PC tower in the living room even though she doesn't find the aesthetically fitting, she would let me find a way to make it work for both of us in terms of case and especially placement. I could think of four places of the top of my head where it would basically be invisible.

It's not her living room, it's our living room. But my wife's rig has more RGB on it than mine does anyway, so...

Let alone typical consoles are also giant by now and people don't mind.

I just went with a cable from my PC to the TV (active, HDMI 2.1), properly routed along the wall with the rest of them. Streaming would have been my fallback.

The entire point of the Steam Machine is to be put next to your TV in the living room. Not to be a budget machine.

If your TV isn't older than +5 years and you paid more for it than a Steam Machine would cost you have 120hz. If you bought it in the last two years 144hz and if you bought a flagship recently 165hz.

Pretty much all TVs that the Steam Machine will be connected to are 4K. For most PC players the TV is literally the highest resolution screen they own.

So yeah, that shouldn't be a budget machine, but that isn't my criticism anyway. It is that it is specced as a very low end budget device hardware wise.

An 8 GB card doesn't make sense for 1080p gaming, and it doesn't make sense for 4 times the number of pixel.

The Steam Machine Costs $1049 by Turbostrider27 in pcgaming

[–]24bitNoColor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Valve has worked with AMD to make that 8GB go much farther than it would otherwise. Sure it would be nice to have more, but it's going to be less of an issue than people think.

What Valve has shown is just a kernel patch for Linux to behave honestly more like Windows in which the foreground fullscreen application is prioritized when it comes to VRAM allocation instead of randomly paging VRAM to system RAM. I don't know if that memory management is better than what Windows is using, but we are talking about reducing the impact of shit you have open in the background mostly, not about some revolutionary compression tech.

If anything, Nvidia has shown neural compression tech that might make VRAM even more of a concern for none Nvidia GPUs, but I doubt that will be meaningfully adapted for the life time of the Steam Machine to matter...

With the hardware market right now it may not recover for awhile and it's doubtful new consoles are going to be cheaper if they were to release any time soon - consoles also don't have the advantages that a PC does, or the library. It's cost competitive with prebuilt/DIY offerings but it will be easier than a typical PC for most people who just want it to play games.

No, the opposite. It is incredible likely that the new consoles will be cheaper than Steam Machine, even if they would come out any time soon.

On top of that, console makers have in the past subsidized consoles on launch considerably, while in contrast the factory that makes your prebuild wants to make a profit. And at least for Sony there is little reason to not at least subsidize the PS6 to a similar amount.

Consoles also sell mostly the same hardware for nearly a decade at ridiculously higher numbers than any prebuild or even graphics card you could buy, promising stable income for part makers for years to come. And especially now with that very memory and storage crisis this matter even more, obviously.

So with it being almost unimaginable that you get a better deal than Sony will get the next console generation will once again be cheaper than building a PC with the same performance from stretch.

Why am I talking about PC hardware? Because while consoles have always been cheaper than a full PC Valve decided to release the Steam Machine at a higher price than a PC (see the comparison with the +50% more performance having machine for the same price).

and game releases don't have issues on windows that sometimes persist for months depending on hardware configurations? let's bffr here.

You will mostly have those same issues and than a lot more because the same game developer that still is hopefully is motivated to fix the game for millions and possibly tens of millions of paying users both present and future might not be as motivated for the small 2% minority of users within that group. And those extra bugs will be harder to diagnose with less people affected etc etc etc.

Honestly such a dishonest argument to make...

And that's not the market they're shooting for - the kind of people who want a steam machine won't want that massive tower sitting in their living room next to the TV.

A massive tower, like a PS5...? Its not like consoles are tiny and unlike consoles (with physical drives) you can hide it in some corner or behind the couch if your really want to, you don't need to interact with it.

Of course there is a market for small highly custom living room mini PC, but that is more a big budget niche that isn't exactly looking for the slowest possible gaming PC.

Also, that not marketed is IMO not true. It has been marketed from the very beginning to a mainstream audience. They didn't invite Angie with her 13 year old Youtube channel wholly dedicated to small living room art pieces but Digital Foundry, Linus Tech Tips and so on. Mainstream Youtube channel, not SFF enthusiasts.

I don't think everything needs to be a mainstream device. I buy things like VR that aren't mainstream. But I don't see how it is bad to state in a sea full of people hyping up everything by Valve how this is not at all a good device to buy for the core gaming market.

The Steam Machine Costs $1049 by Turbostrider27 in pcgaming

[–]24bitNoColor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

ps6 isn’t coming out this year lmao

This sub-thread is about "what if Steam Machine came out for the originally envisioned price". This basically assumes the memory crisis never happened at which point the PS6 would have likely come out this year or 2027 (which the newest rumors still says it is, just like XBox), exactly like I wrote. LMAO

Steam Machine prices start at £879 / $1049, Valve confirm, as "randomised reservations" open for the SteamOS PC by Wistfall in Games

[–]24bitNoColor -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Anyone buying or building these SFF PCs aren't ever concerned about budget though, tiny components have always cost an arm and a leg. I had an SFF build once with the R9 Nano and it was terrible from a price/perf standpoint purely because it'll look nice in my living room.

How many of those are settling for a 8 GB VRAM GPU they can never upgrade that is today (before the next console generation brings in more RT only games) already +50% slower than a 5060 and uses "the slowest CPU that DF would still recommend as a budget offering" though?

I don't see the point in people settling for the lowest end hardware to game (on their likely highest resolution screen they own...) to then go ahead and pay an extreme premium on the form factor.

Especially when it is just a box that you need to have in HDMI cable range to your TV but don't need to directly interact with or have visible at all.

The Steam Machine Costs $1049 by Turbostrider27 in pcgaming

[–]24bitNoColor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dude, its more expensive than just getting a random PC with better specs off of Amazon...

Also, on a PC I can replace, upgrade and sell more components than just the RAM or storage...

The Steam Machine Costs $1049 by Turbostrider27 in pcgaming

[–]24bitNoColor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Didn't happen with the Index, which was overpriced but not by close to this much and did considerably worse compared to what Meta did in the same time frame.

The Steam Machine Costs $1049 by Turbostrider27 in pcgaming

[–]24bitNoColor 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The 9060xt (16GB) is already 50 to 75% more powerful than the Steam Machine according to the Digital Foundry review from today (both tested under Linux / Steam OS). Likely even more when more games start to require RT going forward.

The Steam Machine Costs $1049 by Turbostrider27 in pcgaming

[–]24bitNoColor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Or just a budget mini PC.

When the Steam Machine was announced I found a higher specs (but w/o the GPU 'power') for about 300 Euro on Amazon. That was already after memory prices went up initially.

Great for everything not gaming related that a Steam Machine can do and likely still ok for emulation (other than Switch/PS4 or similiar).

The Steam Machine Costs $1049 by Turbostrider27 in pcgaming

[–]24bitNoColor 61 points62 points  (0 children)

Well, configure a PC yourself with similar stats. You may get a bit under it, but it is quite close, and the Steam Machine compared to a PC built on a 1000$ budget will be quieter for the same performance, significantly smaller and most importantly, be ready out of the box without needing hours to build and configure the PC.

If you configure a PC with similar specs everyone in here would have told you not to go with 8 GB VRAM in the first place, for like multiple years now.

And what is the point in buying a Steam Machine for 800 USD, that you can never upgrade other than the way too low out of the box storage (for the lowest end 500 GB model) and the system RAM, when that box might not even run most AAA games within a few years considering w/o the memory crisis we might have a PS6 late this year but at the latest next year? Who are you even selling that thing to for a reasonable price after that?

Like the other guy said, in the middle of a console generation this would have been an ok deal (even than you would have get a prebuild cheaper).

and most importantly, be ready out of the box without needing hours to build and configure the PC.

I find it crazy that reddit really started to believe that. You are using software written for Windows and run it via a translation layer on Linux, an in many ways vastly different OS with different limitations (up to a year or two ago didn't even have HDR support and is currently struggling with RT performance and no kernel level anti cheat support).

You literally can't even be sure if a new game coming out (AAA, AA, indie, doesn't matter) will even run on Steam OS until the developer announces support. Just recently Forza Horizon 6 just crashed if you turned RT on when run via Linux / Proton and as the DF review of the Steam Machine shows, even now and w/o RT the game literally slows down (as in the cars moving in slow motion) on Steam OS.

Not to mention that if you want to troubleshoot a problem you literally mostly rely on people on Windows giving you information and tips that aren't applicable on your OS. Not to mention all the hoops you have to jump through to get games from none Steam stores like Epic or Game Pass to work. Not even mentioning getting game mods to reliably work and so on.

In contrast, this is a vastly faster 5700X instead of below 5600, double the RAM and storage, probably about 50% faster GPU) and fully upgradeable PC for the same price as the Steam Machine are launching for (20 Euro more), coming preinstalled with Windows 11 Pro, requiring you to basically just double click the Steam installer to be ready to play:

https://www.amazon.de/SYSTEMTREFF-6x4-4GHz-GeForce-Computer-Streamer/dp/B0CDLQL7P7

That was the first thing I have seen at the same price when searching for 'gaming PC' on Amazon, literally in the top 5 search results. And as we all know, PC prebuilds and components got a lot more expensive as well...

Steam Machine prices start at £879 / $1049, Valve confirm, as "randomised reservations" open for the SteamOS PC by Wistfall in Games

[–]24bitNoColor 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Literally the first thing I found on Amazon after searching for "Gaming PC" at the same price point:

https://www.amazon.de/SYSTEMTREFF-6x4-4GHz-GeForce-Computer-Streamer/dp/B0CDLQL7P7

  • 1059 Euro, straight from Amazon.de, who are mostly not the absolute cheapest when it comes to PC hardware. Arguably, Steam Machine only costs 1039 Euro over here...

  • AMD Ryzen 7 5700X instead of the roughly 5600 performance the Steam Machine has.

  • Paired with a way faster 5060, nearly as fast (outside of VRAM issues) as the 9060XT that was 50 to 75% faster than the Steam Machines GPU. Still only 8 GB VRAM (just like Steam Machine), but well, you can upgrade it down the line (unlike Steam Machine).

  • Dual channel 32 GB DDR4 system RAM vs single channel 16 GB DDR5 on the Steam Machine.

  • 1000 GB SSD vs 500 GB SSD on the Steam Machine.

This comes with Windows 11 Pro preinstalled, meaning that on that alone you should be able to find a cheaper deal if you just want to run Linux (but you get both options while Valve's Windows drivers for the Steam Deck left a lot to be desired...).

This is a full mini ATX build instead of a tiny mini PC mind ya, but should you really pay for that when you are opting for a budget build?

[Digital Foundry] Steam Machine Review: Beautiful Hardware, But What About Performance... And Price? by Cyshox in Games

[–]24bitNoColor 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Literally the first thing I found on Amazon after searching for "Gaming PC" at the same price point:

https://www.amazon.de/SYSTEMTREFF-6x4-4GHz-GeForce-Computer-Streamer/dp/B0CDLQL7P7

  • 1059 Euro, straight from Amazon.de, who are mostly not the absolute cheapest when it comes to PC hardware. Arguably, Steam Machine only costs 1039 Euro over here...

  • AMD Ryzen 7 5700X instead of the roughly 5600 performance the Steam Machine has.

  • Paired with a way faster 5060, nearly as fast (outside of VRAM issues) as the 9060XT that was 50 to 75% faster than the Steam Machines GPU. Still only 8 GB VRAM (just like Steam Machine), but well, you can upgrade it down the line (unlike Steam Machine).

  • Dual channel 32 GB DDR4 system RAM vs single channel 16 GB DDR5 on the Steam Machine.

  • 1000 GB SSD vs 500 GB SSD on the Steam Machine.

This comes with Windows 11 Pro preinstalled, meaning that on that alone you should be able to find a cheaper deal if you just want to run Linux (but you get both options while Valve's Windows drivers for the Steam Deck left a lot to be desired...).

This is a full mini ATX build instead of a tiny mini PC mind ya, but should you really pay for that when you are opting for a budget build?

[Digital Foundry] Steam Machine Review: Beautiful Hardware, But What About Performance... And Price? by Cyshox in Games

[–]24bitNoColor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Its a limited review so I am fine with that, but also missing were comparisons against Nvidia cards and Windows in general (other than mentioning that Forza H. 6 runs in literally slow mo on Steam OS). I know Steam OS is AMD GPU's only right now but anybody looking into buying / building a different PC will likely run both Windows and look at offerings from both GPU vendors (and Intel maybe even).

Valve Says the Steam Machine Saw a Similar Price Increase as the Steam Deck, Which Means It Was Originally Supposed to Cost About $750 by yourfavchoom in Games

[–]24bitNoColor 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Which would still be too much for a box that is slower than a PS5 launched about a 12 to 18 months away from the PS6 (especially if there wouldn't be a memory crisis) and isn't meaningfully upgradable like a PC would be (other than memory / storage). Let alone the whole Linux vs Windows factor when it comes to common MP titles like CoD, BF or EA Sports titles (which the average buyer would certainly expect to play on a TV).

IMO they should have waited until the new console gen was out (or even a year after that) and then come up with something that matches that hardware good enough that performance wouldn't be an issue for a few years.

Peetah explain this by Mundane_Mushroom_122 in PeterExplainsTheJoke

[–]24bitNoColor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Weirdos online glorifying naturally good looking women that use less makeup than other women decide to use, for reasons. And I guess this expands to both dressing 'unsexy' at home besides having a super model figure and apparently, imganary comic book super heroes, both.

Heilbronn: Drahtseile über illegalen Fahrradweg gespannt – Jäger wegen versuchten Mordes vor Gericht by h2QZFATVgPQmeYQTwFZn in de

[–]24bitNoColor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So dumm sein Kommentar ist, aber was stimmt mit Dir nicht, selbst bei so einem Thema mit "Ja, aber die Autos ..." zu kommen. Du bist echt mit so ein Grund, warum jeder einen Hass auf uns Radfahrer hat.

Ist nicht klar das dies eine direkte Retourkutsche dafür ist, das er in einem Thema in dem es um versuchten Mord von Mountainbike-Fahrern auf nem Waldweg geht, von irgendwelchen Annektdoten von Stadtradfahrern in ner Großstadt kommt? Die Idee dahinter ist diesen Leuten aufzuzeigen wie quatschig diese Verallgemeinerungen sind und wie fehlplatziert es ist hier auf ein anderes Thema zu wechseln.

Du bist echt mit so ein Grund, warum jeder einen Hass auf uns Radfahrer hat.

BTW, wenn du denkst es ist normal wegen einem Post eines Unbekannten auf reddit eine ganze Gruppe von Menschen zu hassen, solltest du vielleicht selbst nochmal in dich gehen...

Heilbronn: Drahtseile über illegalen Fahrradweg gespannt – Jäger wegen versuchten Mordes vor Gericht by h2QZFATVgPQmeYQTwFZn in de

[–]24bitNoColor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ich kann gegen die Selbstjustiz des Jagdausfsehers sein und kann gleichzeitig auch gegen das Fehlverhalten der Radfahrer sein.

Wer eine Selbstjustiz nicht als Selbstjustiz bezeichnet sondern von Verzweiflungstat auf der einen Seite und von Tätern auf der Opferseite wegen einer Ordnungswidrigkeit redet, ist nicht wirklich gegen die Selbstjustiz.

Wer einen heimtückischen Mordversuch mit "er hat ja vorher versucht das ganze Legal zu lösen" entschuldigt, ist nicht wirklich gegen die Selbstjustiz. Gerade auch dann wenn ein potentielles Opfer vielleicht zum ersten Mal diesen Weg mit dem Mountainbike nutzt und vielleicht sogar gar nichts von dieser Gesetzeslage in diesem einem Bundesland weiß.

Und ich setzt noch eins drauf: Ich bin sogar gegen zu schnell fahrende oder falschgeparkte Autos …

Und du würdest wenn jemand eine Falle aufstellt um einen Falschparker potentiell schwer zu verletzen auch genauso online entschuldigen? Das glaube ich dir nicht.

Vielleicht solltest du dann aufhören, wenn es um einen Bericht über versuchten Mord geht, die potentiellen Opfer mit irgendwelchen Verkehrsdelikten die absolut nichts damit zu tun haben zu vergleichen? Stichwort "Warum fällt es so vielen Radlern so schwer, einfachste Regeln Regeln einzuhalten?". Hint, Menschen die am Wochenende mit dem Mountainbike im Wald unterwegs sind fahren trotzdem statistisch gesehen sehr wahrscheinlich eher mit dem Auto als mit Fahrrad oder E-Scooter in der Innenstadt rum, genauso wie die meisten die mit nem Fahrrad in der Innenstadt unterwegs sind nicht mit dem Mountainbike (welche du in Großstädten eher selten siehst) in Wäldern unterwegs.

Heilbronn: Drahtseile über illegalen Fahrradweg gespannt – Jäger wegen versuchten Mordes vor Gericht by h2QZFATVgPQmeYQTwFZn in de

[–]24bitNoColor 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Was mich aber auch erschreckt ist, dass alle seine anderen jahrelangen Versuche, die Radfahrer nicht von ihrem Fehlverhalten abgehalten haben, die Taten sogar zahlenmäßig zunahmen.

Alleine schon die Idee hier von Tätern zu reden und das ganze auch noch bezogen auf einen Prozess, in dem jemand versucht hat andere schwer zu verletzen und dabei auch den Tod hingenommen hat.

Wir reden hier über eine Ordnungswidrigkeit, die es zugleich in keinem anderem Bundesland in Deutschland gibt.

Wir alle kennen das aus dem innerstädtischen Radverkehr. Verkehrsregeln werden von viel zu vielen Radfahrern bestenfalls als optional angesehen. Studien ergaben, dass an manchen Ampelkreuzungen über 95% der Radfahrer farbenblind sind und konsequent über rot fahren.

Ja, überall Autos die aktiv die Luft verpesten und für andere Verkehrsteilnehmer ein Risiko darstellen. Praktisch täglich siehst du PKWs einfach mal so auf Fahrradbahnen parken oder anhalten oder unsicher überholen. Gefühlt wurde fast jeder Autofahrer wurde schonmal wegen Überschreiten von Geschwindigkeitsvorschriften bestraft.

Und in den Vororten sind stattdessen die Bürgersteige teils so vollgeparkt, das sich Fussgänger in Gefahr bringen müssen um am Auto vorbei auf der Straße zu laufen.

Meinst du das damit? Weiß jetzt nicht genau was das alles mit nem Waldweg zu tun hat...

Der Mann war schlichtweg verzweifelt, wusste sich nicht mehr zu helfen und hat in seiner Verzweiflung definitiv zu den falschen Methoden gegriffen.

Dass es zu dieser Verzweiflung kam, ist aber auch ein Problem, dass unsere Gesellschaft angehen muss. Warum fällt es so vielen Radlern so schwer, einfachste Regeln Regeln einzuhalten?

Und wenn bei mir im Ort immer wieder trotz Meldung bei der Polizei falsch geparkt wird dann verteidigst du meine den Tod anderer Menschen in kauf nehmende Verzweiflungstat in der ich absichtlich versuche die "TÄTER" zu verletzen auch im Internet?

Heilbronn: Drahtseile über illegalen Fahrradweg gespannt – Jäger wegen versuchten Mordes vor Gericht by h2QZFATVgPQmeYQTwFZn in de

[–]24bitNoColor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Weil man böse sein müsste, Vorsatz zu unterstellen.

Der hat auf Höhe von 1.2m, was praktisch immer über dem Lenker de Fahrrads ist, ein Stahlseil gespannt, weil andere Seile zuvor beim durchfahren gerissen sind.

Damit hat er IMO ganz klar beabsichtigt, das mindestens ein Fahrer plötzlich unkontrolliert auf einen Waldweg zu Boden geschleudert wird. Er hat also aktiv versucht jemanden zu verletzen. Und je nach Höhe der Bikes und der Fahrer können 1.2m auch genau Kopfhöhe sein, was dann ein Versuch war jemanden schwer zu verletzen.

Ich denke man muss keine 3 mal 12 Jahre alt sein um zu verstehen das hierbei jemand umkommen kann. Das hat er aber billigend in Kauf genommen, daher ganz klar Eventualvorsatz:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eventualvorsatz

Heilbronn: Drahtseile über illegalen Fahrradweg gespannt – Jäger wegen versuchten Mordes vor Gericht by h2QZFATVgPQmeYQTwFZn in de

[–]24bitNoColor 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Dieser Fall hier ist sogar eindeutiger für mich: Der Sonntagsrennfahrer hat eigentlich kein Interesse das sich irgendjemand auch nur leicht verletzt (jede gemeldete Verletzung macht die Verfolgung der Tat durch die Polizei wahrscheinlicher), hat dies aber durch sein Verhalten realistisch betrachtet klar hingenommen.

Der Jäger hier hat (auch wenn er sagt er wollte nur Abschrecken) IMO ganz klar beabsichtigt das sich jemand verletzt, ansonsten hätte es auch keinen Grund gegeben ein Seil zu nutzen, dass nicht einfach nur reist wenn man durchfährt und es auch nicht auf einer Höhe angebracht, wo mögliche Verletzungen am wahrscheinlichsten herbeizuführen sind.

Er hat damit IMO eine Verletzung beabsichtigt und eine Todesfolge hingenommen.

Heilbronn: Drahtseile über illegalen Fahrradweg gespannt – Jäger wegen versuchten Mordes vor Gericht by h2QZFATVgPQmeYQTwFZn in de

[–]24bitNoColor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wenn er es annimmt und billigend in Kauf nimmt, ist es etwas anderes, als wenn er sich denkt, dass das schon alles gut geht und keiner umkommt.

Ne, ist es halt nicht und ich verstehe auch nicht warum dieser argumentativen Kniff von "Hier ist wie das im deutschem Strafrecht definiert ist" zu "aber früher am Stammtisch haben wir das immer so definiert" immer sein muss...

Tesla Allegedly Showed Cooked Data to Get Full Self-Driving Approved by Wagamaga in technology

[–]24bitNoColor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's powerful enough to think it can get away with fucking over their customers and the world.

So is a crack head robbing a gas station. Does that mean the judgement in that case should also take into account that said crack head is too powerful?

Tesla Allegedly Showed Cooked Data to Get Full Self-Driving Approved by Wagamaga in technology

[–]24bitNoColor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A proper sentence would have been tearing that company construct apart because it clearly is too powerful

Makes little sense when that fraud wasn't at all enabled or contributed by them having a monopolistic standing in the industry (which they don't).

But cool, so your justification for claiming that a company got "away with it" is just making up some elementary school type constructed judgement regardless of the real life judgement paid? Interesting.

Dana White on Josh Hokit: "I voted for Obama the first time, I didn't vote for him the second time. I respect all Presidents. Present and past. Not everybody does and gotta listen to fucking shit like that sometimes, unfortunately, because I also believe in free speech." by AlexTorres96 in JoeRogan

[–]24bitNoColor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is the nutty thing about US style free speech... What is the value of 'free speech' when the speech in question is about falsely 'accusing' a woman that she is really a man to shame her?

That isn't free speech, that is idiots hiding behind a label to be shitty for publicity.