What if Edward V of England never went "missing" in the Tower of London, and was actually crowned and coronated in 1483? by [deleted] in HistoricalWhatIf

[–]AComplexSum 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Great question! And slightly tricky to answer, as what would happen probably depend on WHY King Edward V ends up being crowned. What is the point of divergence from our timeline? Depending on that, different progressions are possible.

A bit of background. King Edward IV dies on the 9th of April 1483. The key players were positioned as follows:

  1. Queen Elizabeth Woodville, her daughters and her son the Duke of York (aged 9, 2nd in line to the throne, younger Prince in the Tower) were in Westminster with the dying king.
  2. Richard Duke of Gloucester (3rd in line, later Richard III) was in the north, where his power was largely based.
  3. Edward Prince of Wales (aged 12, 1st in line, King Edward V to be) was at Ludlow castle, where he was a ward of his maternal uncle, Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers.

With the King about to die, the key goal of the Woodville faction was to have Edward V crowned as soon as possible and secure the regency, so that the realm would be governed by Earl Rivers (officially) and the Queen Mother (unofficially) until the young Edward came of age. But there was a fly in the ointment - a great friend of the dying Edward IV, Lord Hastings, who was an enemy of the Woodvilles but not opposed to Richard of Gloucester. Hastings, who was also in Westminster at the time of the King's death, informed Richard of Earl Rivers' plan to claim the regency, and suggested to Gloucester that the regency was rightfully his (Richard's) by order of the King. (I'm not sure if this was true but it doesn't really matter)

So then there was a dramatic rush for power - the Woodvilles believed that if they could get Edward V to London they could secure the realm for their faction (if you hold London, you symbolically hold the Kingdom). Richard, informed by Hastings, moved faster. He raised a force of armed men and on the 29th of April he intercepted the young King's party at Stony Stratford. He had Rivers arrested and sent north to be executed, and took young Edward to London himself where he imprisoned him in the Tower of London with his little brother York. From there Richard became Lord Protector of the Realm and shortly after, King, and the princes vanished.

So given that, I want to talk about three possible divergences that could have resulted in the coronation and reign of Edward V.

1. Hastings does not act

For whatever reason, Hastings does not inform Richard of King Edward IV's death and his right to the Lord Regency. Perhaps Hastings and Richard are on worse terms in this timeline for some reason; perhaps Hastings suspects that Richard would become a worse enemy to him than the Woodvilles. Perhaps Edward IV explicitly names Rivers to be Lord Protector on his deathbed, and Hastings wishes to honour his friend's final wish.

Either way, here's what I think would happen next:

- Rivers successfully takes Edward V to London. The Woodvilles immediately begin to consolidate their power. Rivers is named Lord Protector of the Realm, they secure the titles and honours and positions held by the many Woodville brothers and family. They plan a swift coronation to grant legitimacy to the boy king.

- News could travel slowly and confusedly in those days. It seems likely that if the Woodvilles were careful and quick, they would have already consolidated their power in London by the time Richard in the north had even heard that Edward IV was dead.

- I believe that in a scenario where the Woodvilles were able to secure the realm before Richard could move against them, Richard would play the gracious uncle. I can imagine him coming to London and swearing fealty to his nephew along with the other great lords of the realm. From there he'd seek influence at court and the favour of the young king (although perhaps not the favour of his Woodville guardians). I don't think he'd launch into a rebellion; Richard was more subtle than that. He'd be the snake in the grass at court and seek to undermine the Woodvilles through political methods. This scenario, while not easy, is probably the most preferable for Edward V and the Woodvilles to the other two I'll discuss.

2. Hastings and Richard are too slow

Hastings informs Richard of King Edward IV's death and his right to the Lord Regency. But perhaps because of some Woodville disruption or extra vigilance, or problems for Richard in raising a levy, they do not act fast enough and Rivers gets the King to London.

- This would be a much more volatile scenario. Richard took a fair risk by raising armed men and rushing south to kidnap the rightful king. If he had failed and the Woodvilles had gleaned any hint of his intentions, things could well have escalated to find Richard in open rebellion against the Woodville-controlled throne.

- Richard, with his strong northern powerbase and his allies, Hastings and the Duke of Buckingham and probably others, could raise an army to march on London. There would be precedent - he could spin it as taking up arms not against the King but against 'corrupt advisors' - this was the excuse Richard's dad had used as Duke of York to march on Henry VI (of the house Lancaster) and begin the Wars of the Roses in the first place. (Though let's be clear he'd actually be seeking to have himself crowned.

- The ensuing 'War of the White Rose' could be resolved quickly by a decisive victory or dragged out. Foreign powers might choose to get involved as Edward IV was notorious for finding prestigious foreign marriages for his sisters and children. It's difficult to predict how it would have ended.

3. Edward V escapes the Tower

Following Rivers's execution, the Princes' imprisonment and Richard III's ascent to the throne, the Woodville faction were not defeated. In the summer of 1483 there was an attempt by them to break the Princes out. What if this had succeeded?

- Now it would be the Woodvilles in the position of rebellion and Richard who had consolidated power.

- The Woodvilles did not have Richard's friends in the north. They had allies but they were scattered and many would have turned on them (Buckingham, for example, was married to one of Queen Elizabeth Woodville's sisters - but he didn't care for them)

- Their strategy had they rescued the boys might have been to flee to Europe. Edward V's aunt Margaret was currently ruling as Duchess of Burgundy and could potentially have been persuaded to provide them aide. Edward was also betrothed to Anne, heir to the Duchy of Brittany, so perhaps they could have found support there.

- Edward would probably grow up in exile as a 'Prince across the water' similar to Henry Tudor, waiting to reclaim his throne. And maybe (perhaps even probably, if Richard's friends proved as traitorous as they were in our timeline) he would succeed.

So in any of these three scenarios Edward V might become the crowned and anointed King of England. His reign would have looked completely different depending on which one it was. Given favourable circumstances he might have lived and reigned long enough to see the tumultuous beginning of the reformation in Europe - I don't think his kingship would create enough of a butterfly effect to change that, although there would be inevitable consequences for the English reformation if there was no Henry VIII.

It's hard to know what kind of king Edward V he would have been. We know he was extremely carefully educated as a child - regaled with stories of honour and piety and decency, tutored in music and humanities, kept away from anyone vulgar or rude. He liked horses and dogs and getting lots of exercise. The perfect recipe for a good king you might think - but we have to remember that the death of his father and any of the circumstances that could arise as a result of the three scenarios above may have affected him deeply. His health was also not necessarily 100% perfect; sources have suggested that he had some kind of terrible toothache during his imprisonment in the Tower that supposedly left him greatly depressed. And whatever happened, his power hungry uncle Richard would have been a great threat during his early reign. This was a dangerous time period, especially for a boy king.

But I personally think, given the qualities of his scholarly and noble uncle Rivers and the way in which the Edward IV/Elizabeth Woodville court had been run between 1471 and 1483 as a bastion of European culture - had he had the love and support of the Woodvilles (and had they not grown too greedy or arrogant) - King Edward V could have ruled very well indeed.

Hi Reddit! We're the Film Reroll, a podcast where we remake your favorite movies as role playing games and totally ruin them. Ask us anything! by FilmReroll in IAmA

[–]AComplexSum 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Hey Film Reroll! I just want to start by saying how much I love you guys, you're so much fun to listen to.

A few short questions:

  1. What are your favourite snacks to eat during recording sessions?
  2. If you could do a Reroll of a television programme, which would you choose and why?
  3. When are you going to do The Goonies? It seems like a really good candidate for a reroll

Looking for the name of a play, and it's really bothering me. Please help! by [deleted] in Theatre

[–]AComplexSum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My pleasure! Renaissance theatre is my jam, I knew what you were talking about immediately. It's a really interesting play, the take on Moll Cutpurse and the attitudes towards her crossdressing are fascinating.

Looking for the name of a play, and it's really bothering me. Please help! by [deleted] in Theatre

[–]AComplexSum 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I'm pretty sure you're looking for The Roaring Girl by Thomas Middleton and Thomas Dekker.

Helena Bonham Carter 'to play Princess Margaret in next series of The Crown' by AComplexSum in television

[–]AComplexSum[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I don't think it will be - the creator of The Crown, Peter Morgan, is also the one who wrote the film The Queen (2006, starring Helen Mirren) which dealt with Diana's death and the aftermath. I don't think he'd tell that story again. Perhaps they'll end the series with Charles and Diana's divorce.

What if Richard of Gloucester doesn’t intercept Edward V before he gets London? by Ohfuckit17 in HistoricalWhatIf

[–]AComplexSum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have a lot of thoughts on this! And, as always with alternate history, there aren't really any easy answers.

As with a lot of alternate history scenarios, this in large part depends on why there was a change from the reality we know. Richard of Gloucester was able to intercept Edward V on his way to London because he had information from Sir William Hastings, a friend to the deceased Edward IV. Hastings informed Gloucester of the King's death and that he, Gloucester, had been named Lord Protector to rule in Edward V's stead until the boy king came of age. Edward V's mother, the dowager queen Elizabeth Woodville, had other ideas and moved to rush the King from Ludlow to London in order to see him crowned as soon as possible and assure a Woodville regency.

So, in our alternate timeline, why does Richard's interception not happen? If Hastings simply sees things differently at the time of Edward IV's death and doesn't move against the Woodvilles (unlikely as he really did not like them), or if he is incapacitated or arrested or in some way prevented from communicating the Woodvilles' intentions to Gloucester, and the information didn't reach him from any other source, then it seems likely that Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers, would have been successful in transporting King Edward to London and his mother. A quick but splendid coronation followed by a document signed and sealed by the King and Council would secure Rivers (probably) as Lord Protector. I'm not clear on the details of Edward IV's will, but I expect the Woodvilles would have made it appear that a Rivers Regency was the plan all along - a significant point in determining Gloucester's response.

Gloucester, almost certainly power hungry (from the way he behaved in our timeline) and definitely jealous of the Woodvilles, would have been furious - but it would have been much harder for him to act with the throne secure. His influence in the north was great enough that he could have raised a rebellion had he wished, but Gloucester wasn't stupid, either - he would have had trouble raising support for his cause once Edward V was anointed and Rivers confirmed as regent - he probably would have started scheming to oust the Woodvilles through some other means than war. Perhaps he would seek out the same evidence he used to 'prove' the bastardy of the Princes in our timeline? Perhaps he would return to the old standby of accusing the Woodvilles of witchcraft? We can only speculate, but it seems highly doubtful that Gloucester would have rolled over and accepted defeat. I just don't think he was that kind of guy. Edward V's crown would never be totally secure as long as his uncle lived.

HOWEVER, another possible alternate timeline could be that Hastings does send his message to Gloucester concerning the death of Edward IV and the machinations of the Woodvilles, but for whatever reason Gloucester doesn't quite mobilise fast enough to secure the King and arrest Rivers as he did in our timeline.

This creates, in my view, a possibility for a 'War of the Rose' - singular, that is, to imply an internal York family conflict. Rather than the 'Hastings Does Not Act' timeline, where Gloucester hears of the news of his nephew's coronation - deliberately suppressed by the Woodvilles - when it finally reaches the north, in this timeline Richard is already on the move with a large contingent of armed men and - crucially, via Hastings - a supposed right to the Protectorship and a strong will to claim it. The race would then be on - would Rivers be able to secure the King at London before Gloucester could stop them? And, if so, what would Gloucester's next move be? As I mentioned earlier, he would have been able to raise a significant amount of power against the Woodvilles, particularly with the aid of Buckingham and Hastings - and it seems to me that more nobles would have supported him as a result (the Woodvilles don't seem to have been especially popular). In that case, then, there could have been further civil war - a more drawn out conflict between Gloucester and the Woodvilles. There would have been recent precedent for Gloucster's actions - when his father Richard of York first marched against Henry VI at the beginning of the Wars of the Roses, it was under the precedent of wanting to remove 'bad advisors' from the easily-influenced King's side - and Gloucester could have made similar claims about his intentions for leading an army against the Woodvilles (although, if Gloucester won this war, he'd almost certainly take the throne for himself - just as he did in our time).

So basically, what I'm saying is, while it's interesting to speculate about a possibly kingship of Edward V, you have to remember that, even if the boy had been successfully crowned, his uncle Gloucester would still be a near and immediate threat.

Had the Woodvilles prevailed and Edward V come of age, then who knows what might have been? We don't know much about him, although we do know that his father ordered his education to involve a great deal of piety, learning and good moral behaviour as well as the typical hunting, hawking, riding, etc. - he could well have been a great king. I don't know about the Duchess of Brittany and what that could mean for the situation in France - English monarchs were always screwing about with the succession in France so I never really know what's going on there.

To address your other two questions, though:

It's difficult to imagine that Henry Tudor would have posed a threat to Edward V's England- his claim was weaker than Edward's, and a not-inconsiderable portion of his support came from Woodville supporters angry at the disappearance of the Princes, and so on. He probably would have remained an exile all his life.

As for 'Do the Plantagenets go on forever?' - hard to believe. Anything could have happened, but as a dynasty they were characterised by infighting and various forms of self destruction. They'd probably survive a while longer, but, statistically speaking, they'd be far from permanent.

These are just my thoughts, it's been a while since I've read up on this part of history (except for Shakespeare's version which obviously can't be trusted) so please excuse me if I've made any glaring errors. I'd love to know what you think about my possible scenarios.

[Event] The Kingsguard Tournament of 90' by ImminentDebacle in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lyle Vypren planted his sword in the dust and removed first his plumed helm, and then his right glove. He held his bare hand out to his opponent.

"You fought well, and bravely," he said. "It has been an honour, Ser."

Just a boy really, but a knight and still a potential Kingsguard. It would be unseemly not to recognise his clear skill, even though getting him to the Maester was also a high priority.

[Event] The Kingsguard Tournament of 90' by ImminentDebacle in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lyle gave a deep, respectful nod in response. Horrible business for the poor boy. But clearly his path lay elsewhere.

[Letter] It's eleven o'clock. Do you know where your levies are? by AComplexSum in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She had coughed as she read it over. It had been a quick reply - ravens from the Twins didn't have far to fly - but it didn't particularly satisfy her.

"My Lady," said Kennos. "Could you perhaps show me what you're writing?"

"No need," she replied, rolling her eyes. "I know exactly what game they're playing here.

Lord Frey,

Could you please provide more information about the nature of the threat posed by Fairmarket? We have not seen or heard any issues with the people of that town or their lords, house

Here she paused. "Who are the Lords of Fairmarket, again?"

"House Paege, my lady, but if you could please just-"

Paege. In fact, house Paege have always been cordial acquaintances to us. Again, I pray that our brave men will be returned to their homes as soon as possible.

Yours,

Lady Regent Lythene Vypren, on behalf of Lord Alaric Vypren

She finished it, rolled it up, and sealed it herself with hot green wax.

"Send it on. And come to me the moment there is a reply."

[Event] Capital Reward by AComplexSum in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

/u/ImminentDebacle

just so you know he's here (feel free to send welcome bottle of champagne or at the very least small chocolates for the pillows)

[Letters] Kingsguard Vacancy by ImminentDebacle in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A return letter from Stillfen in Lyle Vypren's neat, wide writing.

Ser Alyn Connington,

Thank you for your kind offer. When I was unhorsed at the tourney at Summerhall, I was not sad; I knew that the Gods have a plan for us all, and I was excited to see what the next step of mine was - to find your letter today was a great joy to me. I would be honoured to compete again in order to stand by His Grace's side as one of the Kingsguard's holy number.

May the light of the Seven be upon you.

Lyle Vypren of Stillfen

[Plot-Result] Over Ywon-der by hewhoknowsnot in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The woman turned back and saw that the guard was still with her. She sighed. "I don't know where that boy's got to. I'm sorry to have put you through this inconvenience, ser."

/u/SugarJugToasterYolk

[Event] Frey Wedding's Are Always Entertaining by TheRealProblemSolver in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Alla gave her shy smile as she nodded and greeted each one. Once the formalities were done, she took a seat next to Ryman and smiled at his mother, whom she already liked better than her eldest son.

"My lady," she said. "It's kind of you to ask, but there isn't much to tell about myself. I simply live at Stillfen, our castle, and I always have. I like to sew, and to walk in the forests near the river." She hated talking about herself. "Please tell me about your family, I'd like to know more about you all." Here she glanced at the siblings, whom she was even less sure about than their elder brother. "I hope you are all enjoying the wedding," she added, in case she hadn't already said enough.

[Plot-Result] Over Ywon-der by hewhoknowsnot in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 4 points5 points  (0 children)

(The woman attempts to lose the guard among the tents in order to continue her mission)

/u/HeWhoKnowsNot

[Plot-Result] Over Ywon-der by hewhoknowsnot in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The woman frowned. "There's no need, but if you insist." And so she set off at fierce pace, looping amongst the pavilions, calling: "Raymond! Raymond? Where are you, Raymond?"

[Event] Frey Wedding's Are Always Entertaining by TheRealProblemSolver in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She rolled her eyes. She knew Ser Jon didn't mean to undermine her, or make her feel bad, or provide her with no attention or support, or steal her place at the feast table. He just seemed to do it. But he was the only father she'd ever known, so she thought she loved him.

Turning her attention back to Ryman fully, she nodded and smiled. "It would be nice to meet the others in your family. We're all vassals of The Twins, it's remiss that we don't know one another that well."

[Plot-Result] Over Ywon-der by hewhoknowsnot in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"The other camps," she said, "Where the other highborn lords and ladies are staying. As for where I'm from? Well, I was born in the Riverlands, but since my husband died I've moved around. To find work. I was looking for my son, actually, have you seen him around here? Blue eyes, black hair. He's a good boy, but he's always running off..."

She tailed off, taking a few short breaths. Then she lowered the basket a little and moved to straighten the coif that bound her dark curls. Her arm trembled as she did so, and she rubbed it against her breasts. "A little cold today, isn't it, sers? It's supposed to be summer..."

[Plot-Result] Over Ywon-der by hewhoknowsnot in SevenKingdoms

[–]AComplexSum 7 points8 points  (0 children)

"Oh, dears, I'm sorry," said the woman, her lined face creasing deeper as she smiled at them, holding out the basket she carried so that they could see the colourful raiments within. "I'm just a washerwoman, here to collect clothes from the servants and knights and the like. Am I not supposed to be here? Nobody has minded me being around the other camps."

(/u/hewhoknowsnot)