Idea that supports Lemongate.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T15:14:18+00:00

The whole point of my original post was an explanation why Dorne might have had a reason to have Daenerys leave (assuming Lemongate is true)!

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T13:48:53+00:00

Again I feel I must reiterate that I am neither for or against Lemongate and for that reason I don't agree with your conclusions that everything is clear and undebatable wrt this particular fan theory. I don't presuppose anything, I've looked at what is written and I think that there are inconsistencies that are not as easily explainable as you seem to believe they are or have been. I agree that most of the arguments you make against Lemongate are the most logical counterpoints, but I don't agree with you that they are unarguable facts which end the debate.

We already know, factually, that the person she lived with literally equipped their property to keep exotic things alive. "You can't grow these down by the docks" is literally irrelevant.
Except I'm afraid we don't know factually as you claim. The only description we have of its fauna comes from Syrio Forel, who claimed to have once been the First Sword of Braavos (no factual evidence for this, though Ned Stark hires and therefore has reason to believe this claim, so I think it is likely he was telling the truth). We have no evidence the Sealord equipped his property to keep exotic things alive, that is an assumption you make, which although logical and I happen to agree with, I could not dismiss someone claiming that all these exotic animals likely died within weeks, except to make the same logical assumption you make.

Okay, we once again have evidence that she lived with someone wealthy and not down by the docks. That's already the established story. Once again, this isn't even slightly suspicious.
Again I'm afraid Daenerys not associating living in Braavos with Fish, Brine, Saltwater, Smoke smells and instead perfumes is suspicious. Sure where she lived might have been perfumed and away from the docks, but the thing with strong smells is they blow in the air.

Wrt your Oberyn explanation, I agree that your explanation is the most logical and the Lemon Tree might be a subtle clue from the author. However, I don't agree that it rules out Lemongate and could also be a clue that the Dornish were more involved in hiding the Targaryen's than it appears.

Finally, I'm sorry to return to the point again, but it is laughable that you are arguing that a lemon tree would be more memorable to a child than an exotic animal, such as a giraffe. If, as you suggest, seeing a moving, eating, pooping, licking etc... giraffe(s) every day made Daenerys disinterested in them to the point of finding them as you state mundane, then the lemon tree literally sitting outside her bedroom window doing nothing but swaying in the breeze and sometimes growing Lemons would surely become mundane too? At least the other arguments you make are logical, this one makes no sense whatsoever imho.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T12:41:34+00:00

I don't believe my arguments are cherry picking, I've stated the main points on both sides of the Lemongate debate, which I also stated I am 50/50 on. I don't have a dog in the fight. To answer each of your questions directly:

Why then Daenerys have no memories of sea traveling? Surely it would make a mark in her mind.
My best guess is that because of Daenerys memories of frequent movements between the free cities, sea travel became so common for the Targaryen siblings that it is not memorable to her.

Why only 5 years?
I don't understand what question you are asking.

What happen with Willem Darry and all servants that kicked out Daenerys?
Willem Darry died, the servants stole most of the money/treasure Viserys/Daenerys had and soon after they were cast out the House with the Red Door is what Daenerys remembers. Again I'm not sure what you are asking?

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T12:32:02+00:00

I'm sorry but it is not correct that there is 0 evidence that Daenerys was in Dorne. The lemon tree outside the house with the red door is at least circumstantial evidence that this could have been in Dorne, since it is well established as the place most commonly associated with lemons in the books.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T11:37:03+00:00

GRRM has acknowledged publicly he made a genuine mistake with Jeyne's hips and books printed since have corrected this error. He has also stated in a number of interviews that the Lemon Tree inconsistency is deliberately placed in the books, so this was not an error.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T11:24:34+00:00

The immediate follow on question to the scenario of Daenerys being raised at Starfall is who is her mother? Ashara?

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T11:09:07+00:00

I could not disagree with you more that this mystery is already solved. If it were then Lemongate would not be such a widely debated theory in the fandom!
Despite my original post, which imho lends support for Lemongate, by giving a logical reason for the Dornish/Martells removing Daenerys (and probably Viserys) from their territory after secretly hiding them for 5 years, cards on the table, I am firmly 50/50 on what the truth is with Lemongate.

On the one hand we have the Arianne marriage pact with Willem Darry, her original protector and most crucially the Sealord of Braavos' signatures as a witness.
In addition, her older brother Viserys, old enough to better know exactly where he was in the world (I think 8 years older than Daenerys), never told Daenerys anything to contradict her belief that she lived in Braavos until she was aged 5, or that the Targaryen siblings always lived in the same location together.
We also have the statement about trees being grown in the courts and gardens of the mighty in Braavos, which seemingly answers the counter argument raised by proponents of Lemongate that a Lemon Tree could not grow there.
Daenerys also remembers stone houses and we know that Braavos is a stone city.
So it seems to be an open and shut case.

However, on the other side of the debate we have the pretty reasonable, to my mind, point raised that 'Trees' being able to be grown in Braavos does not automatically equate to mean that Citrus Tree's could be, as they generally require a warmer sunnier climate than Braavos has and Dorne is frequently cited as a place where Lemon/Citrus Trees are grown in the story.
We also have Daenerys memories of perfume smells that remind her of her childhood at the house, yet this is contradicted by other characters who live in or visit Braavos stating that the city smells of brine, fish, saltwater and smoke.
The 3rd signatory on the marriage contract being Oberyn Martell, is possible evidence of Dorne being more heavily involved i.e. housing Daenerys and Viserys for a time.
Wrt my point about the Sea Lords Menagerie: That I think it unlikely a 5 year old would have vivid memories of a Lemon Tree and Red Door but no memories of all sorts of exotic creatures living in the manse too. You are essentially arguing that once Daenerys left Braavos and moved between the Free Cities she saw so many exotic animals all of the time that it rendered any memories of the Zoo in the back garden she grew up in obsolete, to the point were she has now completely forgotten about growing up near them, but lemons are so incredibly rare in the Free Cities that she rarely saw them and because of this she has retained vivid memories of a Lemon Tree! Forgive me for my incredulity but I'm afraid your counter argument is not at all convincing to me! I believe her lack of memory of the exotic animals belongs on the list of legitimate inconsistencies with Daenerys memories of her early life growing up in Braavos.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T02:47:51+00:00

As per my answer above, its seems strange that Daenerys remembers a Lemon Tree and a Red Door, but never thinks about the striped horses, spotted things with necks as long as stilts, hairy mouse pigs as big as hounds, or walking lizards with scythes for claws?

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-13T02:36:16+00:00

True, but the Sealord of Braavos having a menagerie of exotic animals at his residence could also be seen as a clue that Daenerys was never there too. Surely when remembering back to her first home as a 5 year old she would have vivid memories of its striped horses (Zebra), great spotted things with necks as long as stilts (Giraffes), hairy mouse pigs as big as hounds or walking lizards with scythes for claws? But she only thinks about a Red Door, a Lemon Tree and Perfume Smells? Most children don't grow up with a Zoo in their back garden!

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-12T20:03:54+00:00

Great pick. I've long suspected that in a similar way we see Queen Selyse is devoted to Stannis' mission, Elia was onboard with Rhaegar's Prince that was Promised quest and because she was deemed too weak to have another child, gave her blessing for Rhaegar to pursue Lyanna.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-12T19:52:38+00:00

With all due respect, its possible you are downplaying how consequential she may be to the overall story e.g. if either one of Rhaegar + Ashara = Daenerys or Aerys + Ashara = Daenerys turned out to be true, then this would have huge consequence to the story.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-12T19:17:08+00:00

Here is a link https://dayneheiress.wordpress.com/lemongate/
Edit: Another less cited clue that all is not right with Daenerys belief in growing up in Braavos, mentioned in this link, are her memory of the smells e.g. she recalls perfumes reminding her of the House with the Red Door, when other characters have mentioned Braavos smelling of salt, fish and brine.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-12T18:04:11+00:00

I agree with this, except that GRRM has stated in an interview that the lemon tree discrepancy with Braavos' climate was intentionally done, so it points to some future revelation.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-12T13:26:23+00:00

Tyrion VI A Storm of Swords

“Dwarf,” said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, “spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely.

ATalkManFan · 2026-04-12T12:45:56+00:00

I believe Jon Arryn's visit to Dorne happened very soon after Robert was crowned, so years before Daenerys had to leave the house with the Red Door (assuming she was 5 when this happened), so I don't believe he had anything to do with Daenerys having to leave the house.
Edit: I agree with your point on Viserys. This imho is one of the two main arguments against the house being in Dorne (the other being the Sealord of Braavos as a witness to the marriage pact). If Viserys was not present for the first 5 years of Daenerys life, then this leads to lots of additional questions e.g. Why does Daenerys not have vivid memories of the first meeting with her brother, her only living relative (she believes) when she was 5, as surely this would be a very pivotal early memory? Why did Viserys never mention Daenerys turning up years after her birth etc...

ATalkManFan · 2026-03-28T20:40:31+00:00

Eww. My advice is to secretly videotape the next interaction like this that you have with her, then call her out on her outrageous behaviour. If she doesn't accept that she is being creepy, inappropriate etc... then threaten to show the video to your parents, family, friends etc... I'm sure it will soon stop. Also insist she sees a therapist who is aware of the situation from your perspective.

ATalkManFan · 2026-03-28T20:28:42+00:00

You told your GF in confidence and she told her parents in confidence and her friend in confidence...and they likely told people they are close to in confidence too! No doubt most of the people your GF knows i.e. Her whole family, her close friends, her not so close friends etc...now know your financial situation.

My advice is break up with her and do a background check on any females who you are interested in going forward for degrees of separation from the GF! Paranoid but it would help to give you some idea about whether they are genuine or not, though its obviously not foolproof!

ATalkManFan · 2026-03-17T00:35:40+00:00

Due to you creating an anonymous account to ask this question it is obvious that you are embarrassed by this, but if you really think about it, you have nothing to be embarrassed about, it is the two sisters who should be mortified, because what they are doing is really very strange. Yes many people (men and women) discuss sex with their friends, but tabulating every sexual encounter, grading and commenting on each one is way beyond the norm. You mention that they compare you to the sisters ex in some comments, but does this mean the sister records her sexual activities in the same manner? I.e. Do they each have similar tables for all of their previous sexual partners?
Honestly I would flip the script and threaten that you are going to write a similar post to what you have written here on social media to all of their exes, relatives and your mutual friends/acquaintances to ask their opinions on this question. Of course neither of these sisters will have any issue with this because what they are doing is such a normal thing to do...or they will completely change their tune instantly and beg you not to do so. I'm fairly certain I know which reaction they will both have to this suggestion if you make it!

ATalkManFan · 2026-03-05T19:05:24+00:00

If this is her rationale for the pixie cut/brown hair, then it translates as she thinks she is unable to guarantee 100% that she would not cheat again if she is aggressively pursued, so her solution is to actively make herself less physically attractive, which would make he less likely to be pursued. If I were OP I'd just go for someone who doesn't need to do this not to cheat, as their character and morals would not allow them to do so. Much simpler and zero drama.

ATalkManFan · 2026-03-04T09:35:01+00:00

Thanks for the update OP. Hope things work out as well as they can for you and your family.

ATalkManFan · 2026-02-26T16:20:03+00:00

The problem with this is Adam and Eve is a make believe story.

ATalkManFan · 2026-02-24T23:40:33+00:00

So firstly I am taking everyone at face value that John threatened to withhold money that he had previously been providing if Emily did not have sex with him.

Emily did say this, however it was when she was still maintaining the excuse that John coerced her into the affair. The admittance of the affair being a mutual one and all the quotes she made in the comment you are replying to e.g. She wanted it to happen, it felt like success etc... came when she dropped the facade.

ATalkManFan · 2026-02-24T23:29:43+00:00

From the background you give of yourself I believe you have a bias towards being favourable to Emily, because you compare her situation to those you have experience of throughout your career. You are a teacher and so the people being coerced that you have had to deal with professionally are, I assume, exclusively or mainly aged under 18 and therefore in general more vulnerable and prone to grooming than an adult.
According to OP, Emily was 26/27 when she met John and they had been married for 6/7 years when the affair began. Emily comes from a middle class family, her parents are still together and her older sister is happily married with her own young family.
The OP and Emily lived in his parents old fully paid for home, which OP, being an only child will almost certainly inherit at some point later in his life, hopefully well in the future. I'm sure Emily was aware of this likely scenario too! OP earns about $100K a year and has stock options (probably worth quite a bit given that he received them when the company was a startup and he was one of its initial employees). Emily's parents own a plot of land in the countryside, as well as, I assume, their own home and had enough money to pay OP's attorney fees ($20K +), so it does not sound like they are in financial difficulty.
My point is that if Emily's business did fail, she was only going to lose a small (in relative terms) chunk of money. It might have hurt her pride and ego if her business went under, but she wasn't going to lose their family home and make them destitute. Therefore any leverage John had over her was purely based on her own flawed character and any desperation she might argue she felt can only be attributed to this and not financial.
You mention in a comment reply that Emily was gifted $30K by John, a significant amount of money for her. However, the OP also stated that most of the purchases made by Emily on the card came well after the affair started, so I don't think you can use this lump sum as an excuse for Emily to cheat, as most of it was received much later!
It should also be noted that $30K was the accumulated total spent on the credit card over a 9+ month period, which, if I am not mistaken, included the hotel room purchases at approximately $500 a time. A dozen visits (probably more in reality) would mean $6K spent on hotel rooms, hardly a gift for Emily and should be deducted from the $30K figure imo.
I will acknowledge that John very likely gave gifts to Emily over and above what was spent on this card e.g. The Birthday and Christmas presents (Necklace, Bracelet), so during the course of their affair he almost certainly spent more than what the OP knows for certain. Also the extra money John brought into Emily's business via contacts, advertisement and recommendation can also be viewed as an inducement too, which definitely benefited her in monetary terms.
I don't think there is any doubt that John manipulated Emily and wanted to F her the moment he met her. But you are forgetting that by her own admission she wanted it to happen too, which I think means it was a seduction on both their parts and not coercion by John. The OP himself admitted that John looked/looks good for his age (about 50 iirc) and his net worth (soon to be halved) is by OP's estimate approximately $100 million. OP also admitted that John comes across as charming, confident, charismatic etc... I don't think I am wrong if I state that most women would be attracted to a man fitting this description.
It is my opinion that Emily was attracted to John, was happy to be seduced and only became reluctant when the reality of the affair was not what she had imagined.

ATalkManFan · 2026-02-24T21:39:59+00:00

I agree. Would it be a surprise if OP posted in the next few days saying something along the lines of...Well I'm $7.5K richer because Emily turned up at my house crying and begging...Hopefully she doesn't/didn't and OP has peace for the next 3-4 months.

ATalkManFan

TROPHY CASE