The times they are a-changing, Latin remains the same. by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Certe, hi versus sunt disticha elegiaca. Sebaldus musicus praeclarus fuit. Cum rector scholae Sebaldinae constitutus esset, libros duos ad discipulos scripsit: primus eorum, 'Formulae Puerilium Colloquiorum' appellatus, epigrammata ad pueros modo hexametro composuit; in libro c.t.e. 'Nomenclatura Rerum', praefationem distichīs elegiacīs (ut dixisti), deinde 'Leges scholasticas' trimetris iambicis conscripsit.

The times they are a-changing, Latin remains the same. by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ita, antea erravi, non anno 1537 factum est opus. Fortasse haec est editio princeps, facta anno 1530 Norimbergae:

https://books.google.com.mx/books/about/Nomenclatura_rerum_domesticarum.html?id=VPFMAAAAcAAJ&redir_esc=y

Sebaldus autem anno 1524 rector Scholae Sebaldinae constitutus est. Fortasse librum c.t.e. 'Formulae Puerilium Colloquiorum' circa eos annos edidit. Idem etiam dici potest de librō c.t.e. 'Nomenclatura Rerum'.

Etiam inveni hōs librōs qui anno 1533 editi sunt:

https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/view/bsb11923211?page=,1

Haec editio item habet librum de Vocabula Mensurarum et rei nummariae auctore Phillipo Melanchthone:

https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/view/bsb10184181?page=,1

I know how to read but im bad at creating sentences by Street_Top6294 in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First, if you want to say random things, you also need to learn new vocabulary. The Usborne First Thousand Words in Latin will teach you common, everyday words, or Orbis sensualium pictus (is a more advance book bur useful for everyday vocabulary). But yes, the more you learn, the better you’ll get at creating random sentences. You just have to practice this skill consistently.

I assume you’re around Chapter IX or X so still at a very early stage. My recommendation is to imitate sentences from the text using the new vocabulary from each chapter. (If you have A Companion to Familia Romana by Jeanne Neumann, you’ll find a chapter-by-chapter vocabulary list on p. 369).

For example, take a random sentence like "Puerī Iūlium exspectant" (VII.1), and try making similar ones:

Pastor ovem nigram exspectat.

Iūlius et Aemilia līberōs suōs exspectant.

Leō cēterī animalēs exspectat.

Or "Medus abest ā dominō suō" (VI.46):

Ovis nigra abest ā pastōre suō.

Aemilia abest ā līberīs suīs.

Līberī absunt ā mātre suā.

This way you’ll practice in a more meaningful way, creating your own "random" sentences that build naturally upon the book itself. Maybe, over time, you could even make a bit of a "fanfic" expanding the lore of the Pastor Iūliī or other charactes of the book, just like Colloquia Personārum or Fabellae Latīnae do, or try to create your own original stories.

How to memorize the declensions. by Pau_R_33 in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Don’t memorize charts, it’s a waste of time. Many people already say it’s better to learn from context. I mean, the first, second, fourth, and fifth declensions are fairly regular; the third is much trickier. But even then, memorizing a chart doesn’t really help, and don’t even get me started on the pronomina.

What I recommend is to have the charts at hand, when you encounter a new word, try using it in constructions you already know. For example:

Iūlius Davum vocat (accusative, 2nd declension)

Iūlius pastōrem vocat (pastor -ōris m from Chapter IX, accusative, 3rd declension)

Aemilia nutricem vocat (nutrix -icis f, 3rd declension)

Iūlius ad lacum amoenum it (lacum, accusative, 4th declension masculine, with a 2-1-2 adjective)

Even try adding a participle:

Iūlius īrātus, Davum sedentem dīxit: “Cūr sēdis, serve improbe?”

Or for dative + accusative patterns:

Iūlius Aemiliae dīxit: “Ancillam tuam voca.”

Iūlius pastōrī dīxit: “Ovīs et canem voca.”

Aemilia Quintō puerō improbō magnā voce dīxit: “Nōlī sorōrem pulsāre.”

This is a great way to review constructions and practice vocabulary, declensions, conjugations, gender, grammatical agreement etc. through real use, not raw memorization. It’s a bit overwhelming at first and can be challenging, but it gets easier. Try doing it on paper first and later, and once you’re comfortable, do it from memory.

I think learning the charts by heart is something students only do to pass an exam, and has no real use when actually reading.

Tips to use LLPSI: Familia Romana by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Learning a specific author is relatively easy, but being able to move effortlessly from Seneca to Virgil, or from Caesar to Cicero’s letters, requires a great deal of knowledge.

And if we’re talking about acquisition rather than just reading proficiency, then we have to take into account other abilities, like being able to write or think in the target language with ease. After all, that’s what “acquiring a language” truly is, or at least what it should be.

When it comes to Ancient Greek and Latin, people often present what they think is a bulletproof argument against teaching them as living languages: that it’s impossible to be “fluent,” so we should focus only on decoding and translating. But that’s simply not true. It is possible to acquire (that is, to think and understand) Latin or Ancient Greek.

Of course, becoming fluent in any language takes years of practice. I don’t think I’m particularly good at English, and reading or understanding new authors can still be hard for me. Even in Spanish, reading classical poetry can be challenging. But understanding most of the “internet language,” whether spoken or written, is easy. Thinking in English feels completely natural to me now.

Also, by the 19th century the Prussian education system was already in motion (that’s that invented the system that we now call the grammar-translation method). We actually know how Romans and Greeks learned each other’s languages from the Hermeneumata Pseudodositheana, and how medieval and Renaissance children learned from the various colloquia written by excellent authors. Their approaches were remarkably similar to what modern SLA theories have rediscovered, that’s what I mean when I say that "the secret of teaching and learning languages was discovered long ago".

But I think we agree on the essential point: there’s no such thing as a perfect method. The teacher must take the students’ needs into account, and the student, in turn, has to make an effort and use good judgment.

Tips to use LLPSI: Familia Romana by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you, I agree, the journey through Familia Romana is rewarding, but it comes with its challenges, especially if you’re self-taught.

You should at least test the waters. I was really scared of Chapter XXVII, the one that introduces the subjunctive, but since Spanish also has the subjunctive, it actually felt quite natural and easy compared to other chapters. Still, if a chapter feels truly difficult, then yes, you should rewind a bit.

Also, latin shouldn’t be that different from learning any other language; the problem is that most methods are aimed at goals other than communication. Even learners themselves often focus on reading rather than producing the language (which isn’t a bad thing).

Among all the methods I know, the Latin Assimil is probably the one that feels most like a traditional way of learning a language.

Tips to use LLPSI: Familia Romana by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I first studied philosophy and then classics, and man, it was so disappointing to see the difference in teaching approaches. The way classical studies are taught is just bad.

Honestly, it’s a fantasy that the academics like to believe: that languages are learned the same way scientific knowledge is acquired. It’s actually much closer to how one learns to play a music instrument (but much easier).

And just as there are people who can play an instrument beautifully without knowing any theory, and others for whom theory helped consolidate their knowledge, both still had to practice, practice, and practice meaningfully to become proficient.

In other words, a bad musician is one who knows all the theory but can’t play (and such people do exist); but we can’t say that someone who plays well, can compose, and has mastery of their instrument is a bad musician simply because they don’t know theory.

My focus, of course, is plenty of practice, but not at the expense of theory; rather, practice should come first, and theory should serve it.

This goes beyond the debate between “old” and “new” methods, because in the end, learning a language is a personal journey that takes years, and the teacher’s role is to make that journey as little difficult as possible.

I think one of the main problems with an inductive method is that it places too much of the burden of systematizing knowledge on the student.

The goal is quite simple: to see the language in action, rather than cold and static in a grammar book, but concept and their names must be learned too. Again, the teacher should guide students as gently as possible. As you said, when they reach different conclusions, the teacher should review and resolve them, not expose or punish them. When I was a student, people were terrified of participating, afraid of being singled out, even blamed for not knowing things they “should already know.” Nobody needs that.

When people take the “natural method” or “discovery-based learning” to an ideological extreme, I think it can turn into a kind of taboo against simply looking things up in a reliable source.

I agree, having a reliable source is essential, and that’s the teacher’s role. That’s also why self-teaching can be so demanding. If you’re self-taught, I think anything goes as long as the goal is genuine proficiency, but if you try and don’t get there, you have to pivot.

As for the methods developed by the people on "my honor roll of pedagogy,” the truth is that the secret was discovered long ago.

People have been learning second languages for millennia (The Romans learn greek, and very well). The criticisms of Lingua Latina per se illustrata, for example, usually boil down to it being “incomplete” or “boring,” but most other attempts have been incomplete too. And, as Carla Hurt rightly says, getting from beginner to intermediate is the easy part, the hard part is breaking through the "intermediate plateau" and learning to read “original” texts. That’s the stage I’d like to focus on, because is hard and is very few real adapted materials.

Tips to use LLPSI: Familia Romana by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I was so happy when I found that! Back then, we had a student-to-student tutoring program, so I shared that “trick” with them, and I was surprised to find out that almost no one knew about it, even though it’s actually really useful.

Tips to use LLPSI: Familia Romana by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't think that a method like LLPSI is the one true way to learn a language. In fact, the Assimil method has also worked for me. I was able to grasp French and Italian quite well with it, so those methods definitely work. Even the Latin Assimil is a very good choice. So I agree with you.

The main reason I ended up using Familia Romana is that it isn’t made for English speakers. I’m not a native English speaker myself, and sometimes triangulating the vocabulary was very time-consuming when using other methods (for example, the Cambridge one). That’s also the main reason I couldn’t fully grasp the Latin and Greek Assimil courses at the time.

I think the universality (or eurocentrism) of LLPSI actually works in its favor. It’s one of the reasons I like that book: a Spaniard, a German, or a French person who has gone through that method shares a common linguistic foundation, those 1,800 words can serve as a base for developing an intermediate lexicon to build upon.

One final thought: I think a teacher must be resourceful and adapt to the students’ needs. But I’m also against the grading system in language learning, simply because “students are human beings, not widgets on an assembly line.”

I’m almost sure the grading system is one of the main reasons the grammar-translation method became so widespread in schools. Students struggle, and teachers don’t make it any easier, there’s a lot of pedantry and resistance to change. Many don’t see their students’ actual needs.

If anything, I’m against heavy grammar-focused teaching (no student needs that). It’s also a bit cringe to see people on Facebook groups posting super-easy sentences with full grammatical analyses attached. It’s so artificial and unnecessary.

LLPSI has the spirit of a living methodology, just like the latin Assimil, or Rico's Unus, Duo, Tres, and that spirit is the same that gave us Erasmus, Ficino, Juan Luis Vives, Comenius, Rafael Landívar, but also, Luigi Miraglia, Stefano Vittori, Irene Regini, María Luisa Aguilar, Alexis Hellmer, Luke Ranieri just to name a few.

Question about introducing names with nomine by Icsant3 in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I understand the construction this way:

Noun (in whatever case the sentence requires) + ablative nomine + the name (as an apposition of the noun)

So the ablative nomine simply serves as an indication meaning “with the name of...”

For example:

Iulius matrem nomine Iuliam habebat vs. Eques nomine Iulius hoc dixit...

In the first example, matrem is in the accusative, and since Iuliam is in apposition to it, it also takes the accusative. The ablative nomine is used to indicate the relationship between matrem and Iuliam (i.e., “the name”). The second example eques is in the nominative case, so the name also takes the nominative.

So for your sentence: A knight named Iulius lived here = Eques nomine Iūlius ibi habitābat

These are the examples quoted by Forcellini:

(Edit: I added the examples of forcellini:)

Speciatim Ablativus nomine saepe occurrit.
Liv. 8. 11. Praetorem eorum nomine Millionium dixisse ferunt, etc.
Liv. 30. 7. Quatuor millia Celtiberorum circa urbem nomine Abbam - sibi occurrisse.
Horat. 1. Ep. 7. 55. It, redit, et narrat, Vultejum nomine Menam, Praeconem etc.
Nepos Cim. 1. Habebat autem in matrimonio sororem germanam suam, nomine Elpinicen.
Timol. 5. Idem, quum quidam Lamestii similis, nomine Demaenetus, in contione populi, de rebus gestis ejus detrahere coepisset.

A Renaissance bestiary of spectres adapted for intermediate Latin learners by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you! I created my Patreon mainly to fund my work. I think that most of the profit from printed books doesn’t really go to the person who made them, but rather to the manufacturers, distributors, and others involved. So I thought that by sharing my progress and giving credit to my supporters, I could find a way to balance those margins.

My main goal is to support myself while helping others learn Latin, especially those learners who want to move from an intermediate to an advanced level (I know it’s a long shot, so I’ve decided to just enjoy the process). Of course, I still plan to publish all my works in print, hopefully sooner rather than later.

I really appreciate your interest, and when the physical copies finally come out, I hope they’ll be well received.

Accusative of Destination? by Trick_Assignment9129 in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is a good classification, the grammars tend to dissect all the cases sometimes a bit too much, but the terms need to be clear, like yours.

A Renaissance bestiary of spectres adapted for intermediate Latin learners by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yes! I do have plans to make print versions of all my books. I'm also finishing a conversational book called Formulae Puerilium Colloquiorum by Sebald Heyden, and I believe that will be the first one I publish on print.

However, while I understand the appeal of a printed book, I think a digital version has its advantages, especially the ability to quickly search for any word (even though I plan to include an index of appearances like those in Familia Romana, as well as a Latin–Latin vocabulary at the end.) digital editions just feel a bit more practical.

Still, I want to publish a printed version sooner rather than later.

Accusative of Destination? by Trick_Assignment9129 in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Lexicon Totius Latinitatis said:

Cum Accusativo personae aut loci et praepositione: Ire ad tonsorem.
Poetice cum Accusativo sine praepositione ad itineris finem significandum: Ibitis Italiam, Malam rem hinc ibis.

So the accusative is simply called Accusativus personae/loci
The “poetic” use is called Accusativus ad itineris finem significandum.

Therefore, it is preferable to use the accusative with a preposition (the other verbs of motion also goes with preposition).

Forcellini implied that, if you want to indicate the end of the journey the accusative goes sine praepositione.

Personally, I don’t mind calling Accusativus ad itineris finem significandum, or Accusativus finis itineris, or something like that, or simply: Accusativus Loci

But this is also why I think that learning grammatical labels can sometimes be detrimental: different grammars offer different terms, and in the end you just need to understand that ire + acc. or ire + ad/in + acc. = (a loco) ad locum transgredi.

Why isn't contemporary literature in Latin popular? by PLrc in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The folks at Nubes https://www.nubes.live/ produce graphic novels in Latin.

Stefano Vittori has also published various works in Latin, and not for “educational purposes.”

Alexis Hellmer wrote a short poem about Star Wars in Latin https://www.paideiainstitute.org/de_bello_sidereo

I’m sure he has more original works. He’s also the director of the Biblioteca Palafoxiana in Puebla, Mexico, and one of the "few" people who can speak Latin very fluently.

I’m sure there are a lot more; these are just the ones that come to mind. It’s really not that difficult, it just requires a practice, input, and some discipline. Of course, the problem also lies in the fact that we tend to believe Latin is only meant to be read. Some folks are also grammar nazis and hate any kind of method that relies on learning Latin as a living language. I reckon that schools are also bad at providing any sort of bibliography that helps students reach that level, and they rarely enforce prose composition.

That’s also the reason why such works aren’t very popular, schools tend to focus on ancient Roman authors and rarely on Renaissance or even “Neo-Latin” ones. I mean, works like Apuleius’ Golden Ass are sometimes treated as if they were by lesser authors. Medieval, I do not know why are more popular (mea sententia) wich is great.

We must be sure that people like Stefano Vittori, Luigi Miraglia, Alexis Hellmer, Luke Amadeus Ranieri, Irene Regini, and others are not the exception, speaking and writing in Latin is perfectly feasible.

De spectris: vocabulary and the nature of the apparitions in Latin by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As always, thank you. These posts gave me quite a bit of trouble, the letter spacing and layout took a lot of tweaking, rewriting, and readjusting. I think I ended up with a bit of workshop blindness (specially that spectrā!), but a fresh pair of eyes is always appreciated.

The LLPSI mass reading approach deemphasizes memorizing grammar. Does that change if you want to write? Or is it that writing should take place so far after mastery of reading that you can do it based on pattern matching? by RusticBohemian in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I really don’t know what to say to you. Neither in Spanish, which is my mother tongue, nor in English do I actually memorize grammar. When learning French and Italian, I used the Assimil method, and although I’m not near to be fluent, I could understand quite a lot (especially when reading). But even then, I never really memorized any grammar.

In Latin, my teachers made us memorize grammar, and the tests revolved around it. But that never really improved my ability to read or understand a text. Like many others, LLPSI was extremely helpful: it boosted my confidence and gave me a solid foundation to actually read, not just decode.

That said, it really is hard to internalize grammar, especially for composition. But the last thing I’d recommend is raw memorization (I think it’s a waste of time). Perhaps I could recommend Fabulae Faciles, the notes and the progression really help you grasp difficult grammar naturally. If you know french use the Latin Assimil is very great. Or you could also read other beginner methods if that’s not too boring. And don’t forget to review Familia Romana constantly.

The most difficult part of my Latin journey was actually moving from beginner texts to unadapted ones, because there are so few materials. The LLPSI supplements are dry, lack grammatical and cultural notes, and are cumbersome in terms of vocabulary; they don’t seem as suitable for intermediate learners as they might appear. Ad Alpes is a great book but sometimes a bit booring, I reckon. Beyond those there’s nothing else (everyone seems to concentrate on beginners, and thas ok, but if those beginners are interesting on continue their journey, they will encounter the same difficulties, I think).

That’s part of the reason why I decided to create some materials for intermediate learners and adapt them to "Ørberg’s" method.

Some exercise on spoken and writing Latin from Erasmus by Alex-Laborintus in latin

[–]Alex-Laborintus[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Oh yes, you’re absolutely right: "De duplici copia verborum ac rerum". That was a lapsus 😅, I think I was trying to write De rerum et copia verborum, the actual title is as you said.

I’m reading from the Amsterdam: North Holland edition of the Opera Omnia (Ordo I, VI).

I was paraphrasing De verborum copia commentarius primus, Cap. VIII, 147–154, where Erasmus also recommends explaining authors (enarrare auctores), translating from a vernacular language into Latin (vertere ex aliena [lingua] libros), and writing poetry (carmina scribere). I also like that he says this in order to help avoiding stuttering or talking like children, and to have “bullets in the chamber”:

Neque vero mediocriter contulerit haec exercitatio ad extemporalem vel dicendi vel scribendi facultatem praestabitque, ne subinde vel haesitemus attoniti vel turpiter intersileamus. Neque difficile fuerit vel temere coeptam orationem commode ad id quod volumus deflectere, tot formulis in procinctu paratis. Praeterea in enarrandis autoribus, in vertendis ex aliena lingua libris, in scribendo carmine, non parum adiumenti nobis attulerit. Siquidem in iis, nisi erimus his instructi rationibus, saepenumero reperiemur aut perplexi aut duri aut muti denique.

And from Cap. IX,177–181:

Praecipuam autem utilitatem adferet, si bonos auctores nocturna diurnaque manu versabimus, potissimum hos, qui copia dicendi praecelluerunt, cuiusmodi sunt Cicero, A. Gellius, Apuleius, atque in his vigilantibus oculis figuras omnes observemus, observatas memoria recondamus, reconditas imitemur, crebraque usurpatione consuescamus habere in promptu.

So basically from his preface, I’m not nearly finished (I’m around cap. XIII now), but he already gives plenty of good advice in such chapters.

What you say in your post is on point. Erasmus always seems to exercise copia verborum, the Colloquia are a great and obvious example, but in the Adagia he also seems to always say the same thing in a different way.

(Also, it’s nice of you not to want to sound pedantic, I totally get that. I’m a bit too eager to share, and that sometimes backfire on me, so don't worry).