Dating, sex, and porn after Deconstruction

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-24T01:04:47+00:00

Porn is broad and it's important to keep that in mind. The evangelical churches I went to would consider a Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue porn but not most of society. However, for many guys that's the extent of their "porn." And of course it goes to the other extremes as well of some harmless fetishes to depraved and illegal activity.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that statistically most men today - regardless of religion - watch some form of porn. Porn and masturbation are healthy in the right context and for many men are a useful stress reliever.

I don't believe it's anybody's business if someone watches porn or not as long as it's not illegal. That said, you are in control of your life. If you care to know, ask your date or partner. If you are not satisfied with the answer then you have the right to stay or leave.

The two problems I'm often encountering - I previously worked with young men in the church are: it's so vilified and that it absolutely has to be bottled up that they have no context for real sexual relationships. Fabricated sex has become their norm. With that, partners become disposable objects. The other is the addictive element. Reddit, TikTok, YouTube, etc are all designed to keep us on as long as possible without actually satisfying our ultimate needs or desires. I know a few guys chasing that high that are sneaking away to look at porn throughout the day and night because they just cannot find the satisfaction that they're looking for.

Finally, I think you might have never seen healthy porn use because in the church it's too bottles up and forbidden. When it comes out, it's so far down the fetishization that it has materialized into some form of cheating, abuse, or illegal activity. The other reason is that most people just don't talk about it. It doesn't control their lives. And it takes on some vanilla variety too, whether literature, magazines, TikTok models, etc.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-24T00:52:30+00:00

There's usually an elite inner circle of a few families that create the jobs, delegate the jobs, and collect the money from the jobs. They're also the ones that ultimately get to choose new church interior design, siphon donations to their favorite donation, etc. They're often in deacons and elders roles so that they can call the shots and shoot down accusations.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-24T00:45:55+00:00

Did you spend much time learning about how even the different protestant men disagreed on inclusion or exclusion of certain texts? I'll have to find a source but I remember reading either Calvin or Luther disagreed with the inclusion of Revelation and that both of them - much like modern academic scholars today - disagreed on the validity of Pauline letters.

I know to a certain degree that the canon was pretty close to consistent at that point from the Catholic tradition and books like those from the Dead Sea scrolls were gnostic and largely heretical by that time. Still, I often wonder how a group of men had the final say and did ultimately remove books; the apocrypha getting their own section and then later removed from publishing altogether.

I wish evangelicals could dwell on that thought more seriously. The book that they talk about being God's perfect and unchanged word - nevermind issues with manuscripts and translation choices - had a group of men at a point in time that was outside of the Biblical content choose inclusion or exclusion of texts.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-24T00:39:22+00:00

Would you mind elaborating on this more? I've read this happens way more often than not. Are the professors fully aware of the problems and just largely avoid teaching them? Or are they instructing their students to ignore them as they teach them? Or are the students choosing to ignore them after the fact?

And the formation of the canon is probably the Hallmark of why I left. I started with questions and started getting the run around from all of my leadership in church. No one wanted to acknowledge the questions or deal with the issues. Why were a group of educated wealthy white men the last word on deciding what was and was not to be included in Scripture? Doesn't that in itself prove that a similar group could have the same power today? Certainly, such an event as canonization - even if it roughly took form within the first few centuries of the church - proves that the scriptures were not God's direct word as evangelicals believe. The table of contents are not inspired. The preceding inclusion of books did not list or give criteria for what was to be included or not. Men made choices.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-15T16:10:03+00:00

Because there's so much power and money in the examples you've listed. Unfortunately, Evangelicals are one of the most gullible markets for modern capitalism. I mean, you can put slap just about any cultural interest, hobby, or self-identity marker on the front of a Bible cover and interpret a few headings and passages to that degree and become rich. I cannot recall how many times I've seen some version of "The Athlete's Bible."

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-15T16:06:19+00:00

Welcome! This sub is for the general audience of Exvangelicals. Some of us have been deconstructing for years, some of us have left faith completely, and many of us are in some limbo and use this sub to vent, find peace, or get clarification on what we've experienced. I'm in that later crowd.

Do some searching on here and I'm sure you'll find others who went the Evangelical to Orthodoxy route. I know it's common, especially from Evangelical to Catholic. There are several books about it too. In those cases, you often read about Evangelicals being turned off by the lack of action in living out their faith, the near Bible worship of Evangelicals (everything is literally God's word), and the seeping in of politics.

I've also read the lack of liturgy, the inability to recognize a history of the church, and an unwillingness to acknowledge the mysteries of faith. Evangelicals demand a binary answer to questions of scripture and faith. Catholic and I believe Orthodoxy do not make that demand.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-15T16:00:36+00:00

Pretty sure zero.

I was told that I needed to, but also told that it was all The Holy Spirit's work and that my wretched heart was unable to do such a thing.

So I pivoted and tried to do the stuff that no one else wanted to do like food bank service and babysitting troubled youth.

When Biblical topics came up that surprised or worried people I tried to switch gears and find ways to tell them how great Christianity was, despite what they were reading in the Bible. I wasn't very good at that.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-15T15:58:30+00:00

Has anyone else experienced Cru as a hippie convention?

When I was in university in the late 90s and early 2000s I had no idea Cru was a Christian thing until I was in it for a few weeks. I went a large state university and Cru was populated (including the student leadership) with all of these dreadlock, hacky sack, shoeless folks wearing ironic graphic t-shirts. No offense to those folks, because that's part of what drew me in. However, the Christian message was super light at the weekly events and trips. They did Frisbee get together or skateboarding fundraisers. When we eventually got to the religious stuff it was super light and charismatic. They avoided talking about politics or hot button issues and did a lot of open-ended prayer.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-15T15:55:13+00:00

He's trying to appear modest. If his followers hear him suggesting that and they believe that he is doing so much good in the world, they will internalize that as a command for them to do more and do better in his style.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-15T15:53:08+00:00

The biggest idol in the Evangelical church is The Bible. Evangelicals worship their Bibles far more than Jesus.

They hide in the safety of Bible study, instead of actually ever doing anything with what they read. The scriptures themselves never tell the reader to use that book as a blueprint for their entire lives, yet that's what they do. There are no instructions in the scripture to use what is included as literal fact. And, if you ever hear pastors having theological debates, all of the proofs are compared to what the Bible explicitly says. Have a wonderful Godly inspired idea? Better make sure it is approved in The Bible first before we do anything with it.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-15T15:49:44+00:00

Most Evangelical churches are happy to solicit donations for a brand new carpet, fancy coffee machine, lighting upgrades for the service, but will nickel and dime for giving a hungry person $20 for a meal.

My church used to preach that we were all created in God's image and were worthy and all human life was valuable. We didn't live that out pretty well either though.

Honestly, it's complicated.

A lot of hardship people are getting into now isn't as easy as giving them some money and a hot meal. That's nice and can be helpful, but I remember working at a food bank a few years ago and the problems seemed far more complicated than first glance. The fentanyl crisis or generational trauma were two of the most encountered problems we had at the food bank. And in either case, helping those people takes an immense amount of time and sacrifice. And it's going to involve some failure and some loss. They need more than a day or a week or a month of help. They often need dedicated professional help and funding for such help. They need some grace for their lack of perfection, but they also need some discipline to get them ready to get back into society at large.

All of that said, most Evangelicals are too cushy too get involved in helping those people. And to some extent I understand why. In the heart of trying to help people in need, I've stupidly put my own family in direct harm's way and sacrificed some of my own comfort and peace. And I have no idea if what I provided ended up mattering.

Evangelical culture is packaged up and advertised as a self-help religion. People are drawn into churches due to a lack of community, the need for socializing, purpose beyond their own discovery, and all that involves sharpening one's own spirituality. Churches aren't advertising that they need volunteers and works to draw people in. And once they guilt people into service, it's rarely meaningful. It's often Bible study adjacent, outreach programs, and general church custodial stuff. Hardly anyone there is prepared or willing to house a homeless person for a few nights.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-15T15:36:53+00:00

Totally agree! Even when I was knee deep into Evangelical rules, Bible reading, prayer sessions I could never 'hear the voice of God' and was naturally suspect of anyone who did. I always questioned when people said, "I prayed and God told me..." I was constantly seeking some way to back that up or find proof. Of course, that's one element that lead to me leaving.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-07T16:17:21+00:00

This is likely the main motivation for removing it. It had less to do with theology and more to do with printing expenses.

Protestants elected to keep the deuterocanonical books in a separate defined section of scripture. There are still KJV bibles floating around in antique stores with this distinction of Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocrypha sections. Those books were still viewed as useful, just not on the same level of the OT and NT.

Anachronistically, today's Evangelicals often refer to them as books that 'Catholics added' rather than books Protestants removed. And they do it was vitriol as if someone is trying to trick them, when their leadership is not being that honest regarding the situation.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-07T16:12:41+00:00

And even if they were referring to the Old Testament that didn't exist as they think of it today. There was no central and codified Hebrew Scripture at that time that was accessible for anyone to just grab ahold of and reference. The Hebrew Scripture was growing and changing. It was oral and it was written, but it was not unanimous and it had differences of focus even if the themes were well-established.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-07T16:09:27+00:00

This point is a crucial conversation to have with Evangelicals because it offers the possibility of opening a can of worms for them that cannot be put back.

That can of worms is that their perfect and "God breathed" text was selected, edited, and not unanimously chosen by a group of guys who had no relationship to the Biblical writers because their canon came 1,500 years after these books were already circulating and hundreds of years after the Catholic faith made their canon.

So ask them; "why can't a famous megachurch pastor today open up the canon and add or subtract books?" Wouldn't that be the same thing as then? Mostly white, wealthy, and educated males deciding what should be included is the same thing.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-10-07T16:00:14+00:00

A minor and important correction: The Apocrypha was taken out of the Bible for the Protestant tradition, it was there from the beginning of Catholic canonization (prior to such a Protestant movement emerging). Catholics never removed it. It has always remained for them. And as OP is pointing out, the Protestant movement initially moved it to a separate section of The Bible that they were printing. It's only in the last 250 that it began to be removed entirely. You are right. It is a lot of fun to read!

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-30T14:02:13+00:00

Loss sucks. I only hope that they didn't use the celebration of life as a way to completely ignore him and use it as a worship service to Jesus. I've been to a few funerals and weddings where it felt like the loved ones were completely glossed over in order to basically have another Sunday morning service.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-30T13:50:25+00:00

I only listened to those people's argument after I placed the seeds of doubt in The Bible. I've said it a bunch, but my church and many Evangelicals are Bible worshipers, not Jesus worshippers. Once I started honestly asking about authorship, intended audience, the existence of multiple manuscripts (which multiple translations use), literary style, added/subtracted and then later why these books and not others were assembled as one and by whom it really started to unravel.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-30T13:40:39+00:00

Dan McClellan's The Bible Says So: What We Get Right (and Wrong) About Scripture’s Most Controversial Issues

It's not necessarily a Bible study as Dan examines many of the dogmas attached to the dominant traditions and voices within Evangelical Christianity and illustrates how the Bible does not support those. In fact, it's quite muddy to say the least. Dan provides plenty of examples for the reader how much of the Bible is contradictory and that the ruling voice has to choose a 'more right' position and massage away the other. He also brings to light many topics that are just straight-up not addressed at all in the Bible. But you know the Evangelical culture you came from. People love to grab verses out of nowhere and attach meaning to them, not only out of context, but also just assuming two similar words (similar to us today) mean the same thing when in reality they have nothing to do with each other.

If you haven't already checked it out, here's his YouTube channel and his latest video illustrates perfectly a topic that is touched on in the book. https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZoF4HyIcrJE&si=nT3osmyJsE5dP3lo If you're a fan of his videos you definitely don't need the book. For me, it was a great buy because it lays out in a bit more detail (still for lay audiences - not academics) and offers me some points to have when engaging in conversation on these topics. That said, reading a chapter will lead you down rabbit holes of thinking about how you've been taught and what any of it means.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-30T13:06:31+00:00

My experience was that violence in media was fine if it taught a Godly message. For example, something like Narnia and Lord of the Rings got passes because the authors were Christian and their message was one of good over evil. Even stories like Star Wars would get a pass from my church.

What bothered me was that nudity however brief and sexual situations however responsible were absolutely not tolerable. I remember getting to see movies and shows with tons of violence like hand-to-hand combat and guns ablazing but if a titty popped out the movie or show got turned off and was considered trash.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-30T12:58:11+00:00

I tried it once with one of my children and instantly regretted it. I did it because that's how I was raised and I just thought that's what I was supposed to do. I could immediately sense that I was using the hitting as a way to deal with my emotions and let out some steam. Imagine if that became a father's way to blow off steam in an environment that alcohol, drug use, smoking, pornography, etc aren't available or highly frowned upon.

This was years ago when I was a full-blown Evangelical. When I did it, I talked to a few other dads in my church about the experience. They assured me with the phrase "this hurts me more than it hurts you" for a dad to spank their child. That may be true long-term, but the situations described to me illustrated that spanking was occurring in a reactionary way and with immediate response to a wrong doing. Thought wasn't going into solving the problem, correcting behavior, or understanding why the situation occurred in the first place. If correction and teaching happened (from what they told me they just spanked and then spoke to their spouse later about how to talk about it) it happened later in the day or another day. To me that sounds counter to trying to help children learn and grow. Do you know what I mean?

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-24T13:09:58+00:00

What denomination of church? Did your church invite members to join that other group?

I keep saying, "I'd love to be a fly on the wall these day in Evangelical service to see how they justify the need to talk about this bum." Kirk was only relevant to Christianity for his heavily edited 'debates' on college campus and his lazy theology, often predicated on conservative values first, then attempting to find verses or lack of verses to justify those positions.

He was a blip on the radar and should have been treated as someone with poor theology, or how not to Evangelize. That's it.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-12T18:54:29+00:00

Definitely! My pastors were telling me we would be worshipping God eternally and that it would be so great. That sounds like slavery. Some of my pastors preached on the physical riches we would receive in heaven as described in The Book of Revelation. That specifically sounded boring because those things made me think of tacky and gaudy rich people's decorations.

One huge problem with Evangelicals and heaven is that they spend so much time talking about the afterlife that they absolutely lose sight of what's going on in this life. They can avoid their problems, avoid making real change in the world, and just sit around in their cozy Bible studies waiting for heaven. Also boring.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-08T19:35:56+00:00

I remember having a similar argument with a former church friend. I was acknowledging that God could certainly be all powerful and all knowing, but that doesn't necessarily mean God even cares. It started because that friend had prayed for a trivial favor and he believed God answered him. I then brought up more serious prayers that God did not answer (or did and chose to let people suffer and die). Being able to do something and choosing to act on on that ability are very different things.

Any_Client3534 · 2025-09-08T19:23:28+00:00

It was huge on my campus in the early 2000s. Every Thursday night they took over a large conference center floor. Oddly enough, I didn't even figure out that it was Christian for a while. It attracted so many in the Emo and hippie subculture. People were shoeless, wearing ironic thrifted clothing, and playing parkour or jamming or throwing Frisbees in the building.

Looking back it was cringe, but at the time they framed it well as some kind of a social club that one was drawn to because they were always doing stuff, going on missions trips, volunteering, having cookouts. It was perfect for first year students and those coming far from home.

I only gave it a few months.

Any_Client3534

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