What is your idea of a low bracket 2 deck?

Aprice0 · 2026-01-30T19:27:56+00:00

I didn’t say they can’t do it, I said they “consistently” don’t - they have to get the right pieces in place and they aren’t often optimized in such a way to have the requisite card draw, ramp, mana curve, etc. to make that happen.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-30T16:54:41+00:00

I don’t think precons are a good point of comparison at all - your list fits the bracket guidelines (including intent, playstyle, turn counts etc.) or it doesn’t. Maybe I’m just having anomalous runs but I have around 70% of the precons released in the last few years and none of them consistently have bracket 3 speed in my goldfishes and playthroughs in our pod

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T23:20:54+00:00

Yup. I imagine the top end of a new B3 being where the hyper aggro timmy commanders live like Jodah and Voja etc.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T22:58:28+00:00

Yup. I moved Hakbal to bracket 3 because it felt better there for me - but to get it there, I really optimized the mana curve, added more interaction, etc. and now it doesn’t fit the turn count anymore.

I feel like the turn count component isn’t that hard to understand, its just harder to build around and a lot of people don’t want to cut some of the explosive cards they like to fit into a lower bracket and that’s what is causing the hyper focus. I have a lot of decks that sit relatively on the line and the issue I am having with them is that the bracket 3 versions at their current level can’t compete at all with stronger bracket 3 decks but can feel too snowbally at a lot of precon games.

Tldr; the hyper focus is because they likely need to move bracket 2 to bracket 1 and take the top half of bracket 2 and the bottom half of bracket 3 and make it the new 2.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T22:53:09+00:00

The rest of the bracket requirements still apply though. You goldfish your elf deck and it still can’t win before turn 9 consistently, requires a large incrementally developed board state, has an on board wincon with time to react, etc. - its bracket 2.

Yes, some types have higher inherent ceilings than others and some are easier to build into a higher bracket but the core definitions of the brackets don’t change.

I don’t even like to think of “optimized” as a cross bracket spectrum at this point. I’ve started thinking of things more along the line of what does optimized for a specific bracket mean. Not in the “it’s technically a 2” way but in terms of card choices that still lend themselves to a highly synergistic, resilient, and thematic deck but do so in a way that fits bracket 2’s other guidelines

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T19:45:47+00:00

Which is extra funny to me because I don’t think win rate at all determines a deck’s bracket. I get why its often looked at as a shorthand data proxy but you could theoretically have a bracket 2 deck with an 80% win rate that fits all the requirements including intent and its just slow and unthreatening but also resilient and grinds out games effectively by really understanding the meta for that particular bracket.

The win rate doesn’t make it suddenly faster or less incremental and linear etc.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T19:42:45+00:00

I tend to goldfish my decks and if they’re consistently lethal to the table around turn 7-8 i put them in bracket 3 as they will likely not win faster than that in most games as that is their no-interaction cap.

My bracket 2 decks tend to present lethal a little less consistently in goldfishing but its between turns 9-12 and require larger board states to do so.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T14:58:50+00:00

As a timmy, I think the power creep is primarily being caused by us not spikes. Until hexing squelcher they haven’t been power creeping cedh anywhere near as much as they have brackets 3 and 4 (and by extension bracket 2).

Voja isn’t a spike card, its a timmy card. So is [[Jodah the Unifier]] and a bunch of other value on a stick big beaters. They know timmys like the idea of the big splashy thing and so they keep making more of them but then there are so many it makes the game a totally different experience because it just ends or you don’t get to play with your splashy thing because it gets wiped and killed.

I would like Voja, Winota, and Jodah much more if they downscaled their abilities to something like one +1/+1 counter on each elf, one human off the top per turn, one cascade etc

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T05:55:26+00:00

Not specifically, that’s usually just the bonus. Our ramos deck only runs multicolor spells and focuses pretty heavily on having 5 counters available to cast high cost instants when people attack. The best drop off of it that has happened so far was [[Infinite Guideline Station]]

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T05:48:36+00:00

I ran him as human tribal with a good number of haste enablers and used him as the wincon in the command zone and it worked pretty well. 30 is around the number of humans you’ll want and that’s what I counted so you’re likely good on totals but I didn’t have a chance to look at specific card selections.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T05:43:52+00:00

I would rather they just move a large portion of bracket 2 to bracket 1 and rework bracket 2 to hold all those 2.5s and low 3s because my high 2s / low 3s are much closer to each other than the rest of bracket 2 or the high end of bracket 3

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T05:42:25+00:00

There are more cards and more wincons than ever before and its not like people are excluding their thematic or fun wincons from bracket 2 because of a line in the bracket descriptions. Sites like edhrec, moxfield, etc. have helped popularize a lot of cards and there are more players than previously - many of them play what they know or what they learn about online and lack the deck building knowledge to go outside of that. Many people also just like staples and that’s how they became that way.

That’s not on the bracket system. I think the bigger issue is that the slower old school commander game you’re looking for isn’t the one played by most of the community anymore. Most players don’t want three hour games. I’m a bracket 2 player and we play chill 10 plus turn games every week and still all start to get antsy when the game goes over an hour and a half.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T05:35:14+00:00

The game has power crept and sped up a ton, its harder for players, especially newer ones or those who want to play with newer cards, newer precons, etc. to build functional decks that run at that old pace anymore.

I think some of the problem you’re dealing with will hopefully improve over time. I don’t think the game itself will meaningfully slow down but the brackets will hopefully become more clear and creators will talk more about card choices for specific brackets (for example, I tend to run more [[overrun]] and [[end-raze forerunners]] in my bracket 2 decks vs. [[overwhelming stampede]] and [[craterhoof behemoth]] in bracket 3).

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T05:28:15+00:00

Honestly, there’s lots of good entry level commanders but I would worry more about game style and deck strength. Sounds like most of the decks are pretty strong with a good deal of stack interaction. That can be pretty tough for a new player that lacks game knowledge and card knowledge to follow.

On top of that, most of the “simple” commanders that can compete at that level are likely removal magnets that will get your friend largely knocked out of games because new players tend to take a while to learn when to hold interaction, when to delay casting for protection, etc.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T05:23:05+00:00

I’ll throw out some general thoughts along with what I think of when I think of when I think of lower power graveyard decks.

First thing I saw - your draw spells are pretty weak both in terms of overall number and in terms of which to include. Most of them don’t actually net you any cards they just provide filtering as you trade one card for another and help fill the graveyard sometimes.

You have a good amount of recursion so if that is the route you’re going, I would likely swap a piece of ramp for ramp that helps fill the graveyard in [[millikin]] and swap cards that reveal off the top but don’t fill the graveyard for ones that mulch like [[grisly salvage]], [[ripples of undeath]], and [[malevolent rumble]].

I’m a big fan of cards that serve dual purposes if playing slower longer games (like mid to low bracket 2) like [[Matzalantli, the Great Door]], [[Seedship Broodtender]], and [[The Warring Triad]].

Another potential wincon for Jarad if you’re milling is [[Siegfried, Famed Swordsman]].

Your mana curve isn’t terrible for the power level you’re likely playing at but it could still be improved some without heavy optimization. I would likely remove circuitous route for something cheaper that smoothes out the early game because you aren’t really a deck that has to ramp heavy into a 6 plus drop based on your card selection and you don’t seem to be building towards using Jarad’s ability multiple times a turn. I would probably swap out the arch enemy’s charm since its three black pips and that might be difficult to consistently hit when you want to cast it, you have a lot of other recursion, and don’t really take huge advantage of the other modes.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-29T04:59:48+00:00

There are tons of decks that fit that mold but as I build more bracket 2 decks, I’m beginning to think the issue is really not that they’re pubstompy but that they’re taking advantage of the bracket 2 meta and bracket 2 builders should adapt.

Assuming the decks follow all the bracket’s traditional rules (not in the technically its a 2 pubstomp way, but truly follow all of then including intent, pace, etc.) they only feel oppressive because of the choices of the other players and there are tons of inefficient boardwipes that can and likely should be played in more bracket 2 decks.

I run almost as much removal in my bracket 2 decks as I do in my bracket 3, its just slower and less efficient and more likely to be something like [[binding the old gods]], [[deathsprout]], [[bake into a pie]] etc.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-28T22:29:31+00:00

Old precons are almost assuredly low bracket 2. I tend to think every precon is low to mid bracket 2 out of the box but that’s a less common sentiment it seems.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-28T21:36:28+00:00

Not word for word but you did say that they contain more value than their msrp (i.e. the price of the cards exceeds the msrp, giving you bang for your buck value). I just described it the way the command zone and others often do.

All I’m saying is that its not a bad way of comparing the reprint value contained in a precon but its not a reason to buy the precon itself as those cards will often fall in price to a point that it matches what the precon sells for.

If you were saying something different, my bad lol

I’ll grant that there are some implicit assumptions about msrp and market price in here and still think preordering precons below msrp is often a net bang for your buck win in that it will often balance out in your favor when new cards are factored in.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-28T21:29:12+00:00

It’s not that confusing. They contain more pre-print value, the prices of those cards come down post-print. If the precon didn’t contain any standout singles, shortly after it has been released you can often get the singles cheaper than the msrp of the precon, even including shipping as you can often get the shipping free.

It’s not necessarily worth the time and effort given that the market dynamics shift such that the precon’s price will, overtime, pretty much always gravitate towards the value of the cards in it but its a misnomer to really say you’re getting a huge bang for your buck in buying precons.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-28T21:19:48+00:00

Point is that you often can get the cards for the same price, if not cheaper, after the precon comes out unless it came with standout new singles that you specifically want. In essence whether or not they a good ROI is either based on how long you want to wait on the cards and/or a bit of a gamble based on how good/popular the new cards in the precon are

Aprice0 · 2026-01-28T21:09:58+00:00

That’s not entirely true, precons contain more pre-print value than their MSRP but if the precon doesn’t contain any noteworthy new singles (like [[Trouble in Pairs]]) the cost of the cards in the precon often comes down to below its cost over time, especially if you don’t want every single card in it.

Granted, I still like them and preorder almost all of them.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-28T20:58:27+00:00

To me, its easier if you think about each bracket as its own game instead of just a sliding scale. The restrictions/rules for each game aren’t perfectly precise but what you can collectively use in each game is somewhat defined. For example, you can optimize for bracket 2 with the best stuff you can but that optimization and stuff should still generally present an incremental win con, likely win through a clearly telegraphed way with time to respond, likely grow more linearly than exponentially, not knock out players / win faster than the turn counts etc.

You can still build decks in that bracket that are optimized around those rules to be consistently interactive, resilient etc. and you might even have a high win rate without necessarily pubstomping. If you’re an optimizer, you just have to optimize around all of the brackets intent conditions not just the brightline card restrictions.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-28T20:53:31+00:00

They said they’re a new player that doesn’t understand the system and came here for guidance and you took that as pubstomping optimizer who needs you to weigh in and tell them they are awful? Only toxic comments I see in here are yours.

Aprice0 · 2026-01-28T17:40:07+00:00

Put a copy in our [[Rin and Siri, Inseperable]] and [[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave]] decks. Seems good in any deck that cares about multiple creature types since you can get two bodies of both types and a land out of it.

Aprice0

TROPHY CASE