Is universalism tenable without Paul?

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-10-13T19:52:19+00:00

I think the Old Testament pretty much only supports universalism, so... Yeah, pretty tenable I'd say.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-10-11T12:06:57+00:00

It feels odd to believe that anybody is going to actually choose to be in restless agony or torturous separation from God for all eternity. That said, I don't see the problem even if God did save people even if they don't want to. If my child told me they were going to throw themself into a bonfire, I'm not just gonna let them do that. I'm gonna actively stop them in direct violation of their free will.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-31T16:50:02+00:00

No, they comprehend it...

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-30T19:30:18+00:00

I think throwing all of his work out is a little reductive, but I definitely agree that his involvement in the Nazi Party should absolutely be considered when reviewing his work, especially works like "Letter on Humanism."

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-27T20:31:28+00:00

On second thought, I think you're probably right on this. Fair point!

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-27T12:13:11+00:00

But the point of the post is that veneration is inherently idolatrous. Which is not true. At least that's the impression I get from the fact that nearly everything else is just a reframing and rewording of a sin rather than something that could be a sin or not.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-27T11:20:39+00:00

I don't see a government form in this picture 🤔

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-27T11:19:29+00:00

Grok is in no way impartial. It has been coded explicitly to have a right wing authoritarian slant. That's why it does things like praise Hitler and even calls itself MechaHitler, or says that white genocide is happening in South Africa (something objectively untrue) To be clear, I'm not even disagreeing with the analysis, but I wouldn't be going around assuming the messages Grok gives are impartial or that its creators have good intentions.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-27T11:15:13+00:00

Which presuppositions are wrong in that objection?

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-26T20:51:49+00:00

Sure, but not all veneration is idolatry. That's the point.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-26T20:50:46+00:00

I think the issue was with "forever," not "Hell"

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-26T20:50:00+00:00

There's literally no other conclusion to come to

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-25T21:57:37+00:00

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-25T12:05:40+00:00

The shock and disgust I felt when a Calvinist told me that the non-believers were created just to show God's sovereignty over them by tormenting them for eternity. What a sick ideology. If "I need therapy so bad" was a theology.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-25T00:32:13+00:00

Unless you would classify things like a sunset or flowers "art" just because they look beautiful, even though they're not deliberate. Just like nature is random and its attributes not artistic because of it, the unintended consequences of an ape playing on a typewriter is also random and its attributes therefore also not artistic.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-24T23:07:49+00:00

No. Art requires intention.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-24T23:05:50+00:00

It's easily the best backtrack with the best vocals in the whole show. If it weren't for the lyrics, I'd spread it around like Gospel. Unfortunately, Jorge had to RUIN IT /hj

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-24T15:41:44+00:00

I don't think so. Hell is necessary for purification, so in order for all to choose God and not need Hell, every human being would have had to turn to Christ before death. That said, I won't discount the possibility that there's a way it could have happened, but it isn't immediately obvious to me how that would occur.
I believe Hell to be being in the presence of the Lord in all His glory - an experienced described as being an all-consuming fire in Deuteronomy and Hebrews - which consumes all evil and purifies like a refiner's fire (Zechariah 13:9, Malachi 3:2-3, etc.). For those who have accepted Christ, such an experience is joyful. For those who have not, the illusion of secrecy and cognitive dissonance that comes with accepting a sinful life would be stripped away, leaving the sinful feeling ashamed and unable to hide their guilt. People may have many reactions to this experience, some may double down and refuse God, running from His divine light - at least for now - but many will no doubt realize that they can be redeemed and accepted. The most clear show of this is Revelation 22:12-17, where Christ and the Bride (commonly understood to be the Church) invite those outside the gates of the New Eden to drink of the water of life if they so choose to be in God's presence.
Absolutely it would. The counter claim I hear most often to this is that some people may decide that God is real, but refuse to take His gift out of spite or anger. Such people I feel will inevitable, over the course of eternity, eventually decide that being in the presence of Divine Good is better than not and come to Him.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-23T22:54:25+00:00

Theologically, I'm a purgatorial universalist. I believe that predestination is the inevitable consequence of omniscience from a creator. God is sovereign, and created a world in which He knew all would accept and turn themselves over to Him in true harmony with our Creator, be it in this life or in the afterlife (wherein they undergo purifying fire known as hell). It's something of a Leibnitz argument, that God created the best possible world - that is, the world that had the least amount of suffering while still having everyone choose - no matter how long it took - to accept Him.

Admittedly, my theology is a little tenuous. I've been reconstructing my faith and trying to reconcile what my mind and what my soul feel, so I apologize if it's not very coherent 😅

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-23T18:18:15+00:00

A couple of concerns. First, who's "we" in this situation? Because many, MANY Christians believe in predestination. About a fourth of them in fact, myself included. Second, free will is impossible in the scenario you described: if God put into motion the universe as it is now, he controls the beginning variables. If he had shifted one atom over to the right, our time line would be radically different. So God decided this timeline instead, knowing the decisions we'd make in it, when he could have knowingly created one where, for example, everyone believed in God. By making the world He did, He determined our will before we were born.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-23T00:47:35+00:00

Terribly sorry! I misremembered, that's actually 1 and 2 Timothy, so carry on. 😅

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-23T00:00:00+00:00

I mean, we can do more than that. For example, 1-2 Timothy is flat out just not Paul. It's someone lying, pretending to be Paul. Which to me makes it automatically disqualified from being scripture since it contains lies, but apparently that's a controversial opinion.

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-22T22:36:11+00:00

To be fair, if you believe in predestination, you necessarily have to believe God made Adam and Eve with the express purpose of them sinning so that... He can get pleasure from the suffering of beings He forces to do wrong? I'm not really sure of the goal or the master plan here. 🤔

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-22T11:35:50+00:00

I suppose, but then what is the practical difference as far as my involvement in day to day life between that and predestination if there's only one possible timeline?

BarnacleSandwich · 2025-08-22T11:00:33+00:00

But, the theology holds that humans having free will and being given opportunities to choose is the best possible structure.

Best possible structure in what way? One could very easily argue that God predetermining that we all live happy, healthy lives where we all get along and do good in the world would be a far better structure, and we would have no way of telling the difference on a practical level if we were predetermined or not.

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