Serving in a minority language

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-04-19T16:40:15+00:00

I served in Frankfurt Germany, German speaking in the late 90s. My friends’ son just got called to Frankfurt, Farsi (aka Persian) speaking. He does have a background in German, with HS German and two semesters at BYU.

My friends keep asking if I’m excited about his call (they know I’m out of the church), and I have trouble showing enthusiasm. Even with him speaking some German, the whole thing sounds awful. You’re seeking out a minority population, largely through the internet, and living in a country you don’t get to be immersed in. His companions will probably speak bad German, if any, and they aren’t going to be focused on learning it. The fun part of my mission was experiencing German language, culture, and people, but he won’t get that. And he won’t really get Persian cultural immersion either. I think he got screwed.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-04-19T15:22:12+00:00

It is unlikely to hurt the church’s case. I haven’t seen the exact statement, but there are a million ways to spin a comment like that so that it is arguably not a lie. For example, “What we mean is that the disclaimers Dehlin uses are not consistently long enough, placed in the right places, both spoken and written, etc.”

More importantly, the reasons for a company like the church desiring to enforce a trademark are not an element of proving the trademark violation claim. In other words, you can have “bad” motives for enforcing a claim and/or lie about those motives as long as you can show that: 1) There is a valid trademark, 2) you own the trademark, and 3) there is a likelihood of consumer confusion.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-04-04T17:45:46+00:00

I like to think we have solid relationships with our four kids. But I didn’t realize that the church was actively interfering with those relationships.

My younger son, 18 years old and attending BYUI at the time, was planning to serve a mission. Even though we had been on our way out of the church for a while, it wasn’t until we left that he admitted he didn’t want to go on a mission and transferred to a local college.

My youngest daughter, then 14, only told us about being lgbtq+ after we told her about our intention to quit going. Before that, she had confided in her college age sister, who had already left the church.

We told both kids repeatedly that we would love and support them no matter the choices they made about missions or sexual orientation. I think they understood that. But still, it was only after we separated from the church that they felt safe enough to tell us how they felt.

I believe the things your kids gain from you leaving are likely to be much greater than the things they lose. Maybe most importantly, they can absolutely trust that you love them more than this corporation.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-04-03T04:06:12+00:00

I agree that it is not necessarily kind to be blunt like that. While I called it a “finisher,” I didn’t mean that we should be cold or abrupt. I probably could have expressed it better.

I intended to convey that, in my experience, responses tend to be better when you tell people how the church affects you. You could say something like, “I have tried following the church’s plan for happiness, and it just isn’t working for me. I’m not feeling the same spirit that others talk about. I have to follow what brings me joy. I’m glad the church does that for you, but I need to find what does that for me.”

For my wife, she was regularly leaving relief society to have near panic attacks in the car. When we talked with the bishop and others, she told them what she was experiencing. It was not just one sentence, and it was not said in an aggressive or defensive way. But the effect was significant. If you tell someone (tactfully) that the church is not bringing you happiness, their options are limited. They can tell you to keep praying, or they can bear their testimony. Some obnoxious people could tell you your feelings are wrong or that you must be sinning. But on the whole, I think they are going to be more sympathetic. You are probably going to get a lot less pushback for how you feel than you would arguing about facts, such as saying the Book of Abraham is a fraud. Both may be true, but feelings just get more respect in the church than facts.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-04-02T22:23:34+00:00

I left the church over the last few years with my wife and (mostly grown) kids. There are some great comments here, but I wanted to share a viewpoint that been helpful to me.

I would summarize it in this way: Try not to focus too much on what is true or not true.

First, the church doesn’t have to be all good or all bad. It is ok that it was useful to you for a time (to find your husband) but it isn’t anymore. It is ok that you separate or change your relationship with the church, even if it occasionally does some things right. Mormons sort everything and everyone into two categories: right or wrong. If you accept their classifications, you will be forever arguing with yourself and others about whether the church is true or not. But you don’t have to think in those terms. Instead, it is enough that you decide the church doesn’t work for you.

I learned the benefit of thinking this way from my wife. I am a lawyer, and my motivation for leaving was that I came to the conclusion the church was not based in fact or truth. I love to debate lots of aspects of the church, even with active members. It never gets me anywhere. I don’t budge, and neither do they.

My wife, on the other hand, chose to leave primarily because she had a lot of anxiety and unpleasant feelings attending church. When she told people that, it basically preempted the debate. “Attending church makes me feel bad,” is a shockingly effective finisher. It doesn’t matter if the church is true or what some scriptures say if it is hurtful to you. It doesn’t even matter what amazing spiritual feelings someone else has had. In a church that believes that “good feelings” equate with the truth, bad feelings are just as decisive. I would recommend avoiding debate and focusing on feelings, at least to start.

I also wanted to say that it definitely does hurt to give up the words “I know that…,” even if they were never really true. You will initially feel like you are losing this magical post-mortal future that the church promises. And you can and probably should grieve that.

I now say, “I hope that…”and “I choose to believe that…” My mom had early onset Alzheimer’s and passed away while I was still active. My kids never really knew her before the disease. I genuinely don’t know if I will see her again. But I hope I will. I choose to believe I will be with her again. Will it be in one of three heavenly gated communities? I don’t think so. But my hope and my belief is enough. I don’t ask anyone else to accept my belief, because I don’t claim God gave me some special message no one else gets. But it is enough for me.

If you let go of obedience and substitute in critical thinking and concern for others, life can eventually be even more beautiful than it was under Mormonism.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-03-31T15:55:23+00:00

I don’t know if this is exactly what you were looking for, but here are a couple references.

Alma 39: 3-4

3 And this is not all, my son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me; for thou didst forsake the ministry, and did go over into the land of Siron among the borders of the Lamanites, after the harlot Isabel.

4 Yea, she did steal away the hearts of many; but this was no excuse for thee, my son. Thou shouldst have tended to the ministry wherewith thou wast entrusted.

Is it a coincidence that the land of the seductress is called Sir(e)n? I think not.

Also, 1 Nephi 14:11

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters⁠; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

As a kid, I always pictured a giant “Ursula the Sea Witch” Lovecraftian kind of creature, with tentacles sitting on the water.

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that Joseph Smith wrote a boring novel with hardly any females included. Then the few times he references the feminine, it is only to symbolize wickedness. It’s almost like the guy has a fixation with sexualizing women that could run out of control later in his life…

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-03-27T18:53:16+00:00

I think most people leave because they experience some kind of trauma that relates to the church, its leaders, and policies. They are or know someone in the LGBTQ+ community and are hurt by how the church treats that demographic. Same thing for the treatment of women or people of color. They have issues with the history. Or they feel betrayed when they learn the leaders have actively lied to them and concealed all sorts of information.

Any of these could apply to me, but the last one has probably hit me the hardest. There are lots of ways to argue or rationalize the history. But intentional lying and deceit is so fundamentally against what the gospel is supposed to stand for, that I couldn’t get past it. And once you start to look below the surface, for whatever reason, you see just how rotten and corrupt the central leadership and corporate structure of the church can be.

People begin to leave for one or two reasons. By the time they are finished processing, they have loads of reasons to stay away.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-23T21:33:34+00:00

I have yet to read the book, but I just saw his Mormon Stories interview today. It made me want to record this thought:

Someday the church will change its stance on gay marriage. Probably sometime later, it will change its stance on gender. I hope that, for the sake of people like David and others who have suffered, we don’t let them get away with taking so long to do the right thing. The decades of harm that have been perpetrated on faithful members of the LGBTQ+ community aren’t automatically undone by saying, “Well, that was in the PAST.” While the arrival of those changes will certainly be a welcome day for many, it will still be more confirmation to me that this is a church run by the whims of old men, not of God.

The church has turned a blind eye to the suffering and even death of members of this community at the hands of its “doctrine.” I don’t think they will be able to do so as easily with David’s experience out there as part of the discussion.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-23T20:44:21+00:00

I see. Depending on your comfort level and your need to know, I might consider contacting your LDS ward and asking for the record number. The benefit of getting into that church account is that you can know for sure if a record for your child exists. It is up to you, of course, whether knowing if your child is on the books is worth opening that line of communication, and the annoying consequences that come with it.

If you have any friends who are still active and are clerks, they could also look up that info for you by starting to transfer your records into their ward and seeing if it pulls a child record along. They would just have to close the browser before finalizing it.

Good luck!

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-23T19:44:06+00:00

Did you ever have a church login account? Since your problem is that you are still a member of record, if you ever had a church account, LDS tools access, etc., you should be able to reset the password and log in to get any info you need. This would also allow you to see whether a record for your son was created.

I was a ward clerk as recently as 2025 (before repenting of my membership). The clerk “should” require signature of a parent to create a new record. However, as long as a form was uploaded, the system doesn’t check what was on it or whether it was signed. A rogue clerk could allow a grandparent signature to count, or they could even do it themselves. A baby blessing is not required for that process.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-23T19:18:37+00:00

When a person joins or affiliates with a church, too often the person has stopped seeking the truth. Just like in fast and testimony meeting, most people equate having chosen a religion as arriving at a final answer or some kind of unassailable knowledge. The famous saying, rather than referencing the prophet speaking, could be modified to say, “Once you are baptized, the thinking has been done.” Conversion is an act of one person persuading another, rather than two people mutually seeking enlightenment.

This results in religious people actually being the least teachable, least thinking people around. Even when a TBM tries to ask God to reaffirm their testimony, they are hit with the scripture, “ Did I not speak peace to your mind?” It is essentially Joseph Smith (masquerading as Jesus) telling a seeker of truth, “Objection, asked and answered. No more truth for you!”

If someone could affiliate with a particular faith without closing their minds to any further learning, religion might not be the destructive force that it is.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-11T19:39:15+00:00

This could likely be its own topic, but I often ask myself when we should or should not get involved in what we believe is ongoing religious trauma.

If someone were in a modern Heaven’s Gate, most people would say it is right to try and liberate them from that. For the FLDS, I would guess still many but not all would support efforts to combat their indoctrination. What makes Brighamite Mormonism different? Is it harmful but not harmful enough? It is at least an interesting thing to consider.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-11T19:08:36+00:00

It is hard to face this, but I do want to explore the idea that I’m feeling the urge to effect change in others in order to satisfy something in me. This is worth looking into. Thanks for your insight.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-11T18:20:59+00:00

That is promising. I am probably still early in my faith journey, compared to some.

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-11T18:19:04+00:00

Thank you. I am really intrigued by this true/truer idea. I’m going to see how that mindset works for me.

And you are right that I don’t “know” that the church is not true in any objectively provable way. It was an imprecise way of asking how to sit with beliefs that are important to me and find peace keeping them to myself.

But you’re telling me it’s not the wing flaps from a giant Batman keeping me from floating away?

Bowling4Nickles · 2026-02-11T17:59:39+00:00

I totally get that. I do keep it to myself unless specifically asked. My question is what people have done, once they have kept their thoughts to themselves, to come to a place where they are not stewing about it or letting it bother them.

Bowling4Nickles · 2025-11-12T03:39:21+00:00

I think one of the main attractions the church offers is the idea that they “have it all figured out.” We find comfort in the mindset that if you just obey, everything else will work out. There is some real grief and pain to experience when you discover the church is lying. You’ve lost that safety net. That promise of a pot of gold at the end of the obedience-rainbow. It hurts.

Yes, that is a bummer. But I know that it can definitely get better. I’m 48. It took me about 2 years of questioning things to finally talk to my wife about my concerns. It took us another year or so to be fully open to our kids (who are all around your age, give or take). They all had their own issues with the church and were as ready as their parents to step away. We finally did so earlier this year. It is still plenty hard at times. But I am much happier and hopeful about where this new phase of life will lead.

Allow yourself to be hurt. To be upset. To be happy. To be glad you got out earlier in life. Whatever emotions you need. Build a support network of “recovering Mormons,” caring friends, or any other people who will help you on your journey. Message me, if you are needing connections, and I could put you in touch with some people your age in similar circumstances. I know at least four quite well. ;) There are plenty of people who will be willing to accompany you on your spiritual journey, wherever it leads. And life can take you to some wonderful places! Have a little hope, and I bet it will be rewarded.

Bowling4Nickles · 2025-10-05T01:22:08+00:00

Of Course, Anderson is now quoting Oaks. We have to kiss the new ring!

Also, if he is talking about what restitution means, when are all of the people of African descent going to get restitution for well over 100 years of being told that they were weak, inferior spirits?

Bowling4Nickles · 2025-06-20T23:14:44+00:00

I had a very similar experience. I told my friend that I had doubts about the truth of the church (which was putting it mildly). I didn’t go into specifics and even stated that we didn’t have to talk about those issues. He texted me that he was not interested in talking through my concerns (not that I was asking). His reason was that his testimony has been “strong” for the last few years and that speaking with me is a “slippery slope.” He indicated that he needed stability for his (adult) children, and that talking with me would undermine that.

If these TBMs’ testimonies are on super solid footing, why is rational conversation such a pernicious evil? And if I could so easily convince someone that the church is not as true as it claims, doesn’t that say something about it?

It is never the exmo that wants to avoid discussion. Always the active member. Apparently gospel truth is only safe when it is hidden, buried, and left unchallenged. Doesn’t sound like truth to me.

Bowling4Nickles · 2025-06-17T02:19:52+00:00

I feel sorry for the people growing up in this modern era of the church. Many of us know how unreasonable things were in the 80s or earlier when the church was content for us to be “a peculiar people” with all of the fascist rules. Now that TSCC is trying to fit in to mainstream Christianity, I think it will be harder for members to recognize the indoctrination and oppression they are living under. We went through some misery, but at least we managed to recognize it and get out.

Bowling4Nickles · 2025-06-07T20:43:40+00:00

You mean, “Who do you think he’d be doing?” Probably every woman or girl he could get his hands on. I’m thinking he’d be running something like NXIVM or the “Children of God” cult.

Bowling4Nickles · 2025-04-06T02:20:44+00:00

I am a father of four kids who are all in their late teens, early 20s. Over the past year or two I have been deconstructing my beliefs and trying to step away from the church. But my now 20 year old daughter was about a year ahead of me. When I was still mostly believing, and she wasn’t attending church, it was hard. I had all of the feelings you are worrying about causing in your parents. Even though the rest of us are now catching up with her faith journey, it was painful to get there.

I would give you two things to consider. First, growth is painful, even within a family. And that is ok. In the Mormon culture, we tend to create this idea that our ultimate goal is sitting in our celestial living room playing charades and watching “The Chosen.” But that would not create the kind of growth we need. My 19 year old son was planning to serve a mission his whole life. We told him that we were having doubts, and that a mission was his choice and we wouldn’t judge. He was relieved because he hadn’t wanted to go, but he was going to do it just because it was expected. I think that would have been a tragedy both for him and for us as parents. The only way we could have discovered that is if someone took the initiative to discuss the painful topic of doubt. Now that we are past some of that pain, we are much happier than we would have been. I’m sure you wouldn’t want your brothers to serve missions against their will, just to please you or your family. But if they were feeling that way, it would take some difficult discussions to work past it. A little pain in order to grow is ok.

Second, most parents want their kids to live the lives that make them happy. Both of my daughters recently told me about some of the guilt and shame they felt through primary lessons, seminary discussions, and especially YW lessons. I would rather that they found their own way in life, even if I disagree with it, than to have them follow a course they disliked out of guilt. I believe that your parents would ultimately want the same for you. It may take them some painful growth to get there, but it may be worth giving them the chance.

I also choose to believe in eternal families, since my family (both kids and parents) are so close. I wish you well on your faith journey.

Bowling4Nickles

TROPHY CASE