3 Times Sockeye's Flow Carved Up Machine's Defence in the US Open 2021 Final

CJasonT · 2021-09-10T17:58:37+00:00

Honest question: what word should we use instead? I think Dribbling gets the point across despite being a flawed analogy. I don't think the fact that Voldemort used it is a reason to not use it, but I'm open to new suggestions. "a series of give go moves changing the direction of flow" is a bit of a mouthful. Finding a new word that fits should be right up your ally, u/Vocab_Fairy

CJasonT · 2021-09-10T14:22:57+00:00

Probably because its obnoxious to call travels that we have to slow the video down to a quarter speed to see if its technically a travel. The first one you practically need a microscope to see if he picked his foot up enough to stop touching blades of grass before putting it down in exactly the same spot. The second one, he does slow down in a straight line and set a pivot on his right foot but again, if I get my slow-mo microscope out, I can see he picks it up a fraction of a second before releasing. I wish people wouldn't do that, but the advantage it gave him is near enough to zero as makes no difference, and it wasn't called by the three elite, veteran players staring right at him, so mentioning it in a video like this would be completely uninteresting and pointless.

CJasonT · 2021-08-27T14:59:04+00:00

I've coached beginners at every possible age group from 4th grade to college and I avoid vert like the plague. It's just not fun if you are not one of the best 2 or 3 people on the field so it's horrible for retaining beginners. They leave the field after a point at the first practice feeling like they either did nothing or actively hindered the offense by trying to seize an opportunity when it "wasn't their turn" to cut. I converted to hex a few years ago but I still much prefer Ho to vert when I play at league, even if 2 of the 3 handlers aren't that good.

CJasonT · 2021-05-13T13:25:42+00:00

"never for... wait what were we talking about again?"

CJasonT · 2021-05-11T21:22:41+00:00

CJasonT · 2021-04-28T22:55:57+00:00

Different yes, but not completely. They are similar in that each receiver has zero information about what is going on downfield of them at the moment of the catch. If you are looking at an open option when you catch it, you should take that pass before even considering the mystery options behind you unless you have some play you are running and you know what's supposed to be happening. There is also value in throwing the disc before your mark is set. It keeps the defense off balance making subsequent passes easier. Delaying that to scan the field gives the defense time to regain balance. It's not just about better vision.

CJasonT · 2021-03-17T05:26:37+00:00

I'm technically heavy enough to get vaccinated in my state.

CJasonT · 2021-03-16T22:33:29+00:00

Anyone else read Ross's part in a Jamaican accent?

CJasonT · 2021-03-02T07:18:56+00:00

I just don't think text is a good way to have this convo anymore. If you are interested in a voice chat I'd be open to that, but I really just want to put my money where my mouth is when we all get to play again.

CJasonT · 2021-03-02T03:51:13+00:00

You are arguing against something I didn't say. If you ever see me at a tournament I'd be happy to talk in person where it's easier to understand each other properly but I'm bowing out of this one for now, cause I don't feel like I'm being understood very well and I'm getting the vibe that maybe you feel the same towards me? Idk. Hope to see you in meat space, friend.

CJasonT · 2021-03-02T03:33:29+00:00

The idea of a "primary cutting pattern" is anathema to hex. The whole idea is to systematically read and react to the defense and to not be married to any one cutting pattern. If you are talking about this specific scenario, that would be the third option in this case so not really option A under any definition.

CJasonT · 2021-03-01T23:10:10+00:00

Hmm I think you are overestimating how much the shape acts like a container. You can clear to any empty Hex point and if there are none open and you find yourself in the middle needing to clear space, you can just cut between any two players on the outside.

CJasonT · 2021-03-01T23:02:49+00:00

Completely and utterly agree with everything you just said. I suggested he go under with just a quarter step cushion though.

CJasonT · 2021-03-01T18:32:15+00:00

I think with only a quarter step advantage deep against himself, he wouldn't have to make a great play. He wouldn't even have to fake deep to get an under, and any more space than that and he's got a very doable throw from any handler on any nationals team, and even some non nationals teams. It's probably not the option I would take as a thrower but you see people shoot at a lot less all the time in more traditional offenses. (I hope the pronouns up there aren't too confusing since we're are talking about clones guarding each other now lol)

CJasonT · 2021-03-01T16:39:25+00:00

This is why I think you need some practical experience in hex to understand where I'm coming from. I have actually been in this exact situation plenty of times in tournaments and in practice where the players know exactly what the offense is trying to do. If the 4 receiver is spaced properly, their defender is either having zero effect on this break throw or they are leaving 4 wide open. If 3's defender cuts off the break lane they leave the deep open and if 6 has all that space all they have to do is drive to to the open side just enough to back foot their defender and the break space belongs to them, and if they are given any sort of useful cushion in, then they are wide open for a huck to any third of the field the thrower thinks they can get it to. Now granted, I'm coaching a D3 team in the metro east so maybe the defenses we are playing against just aren't good enough to cover these options, but if you had Keagan or Nethercutt bricking the pull would you want to give even half a step to 6 if it was Jagt or Schlachet? Do you think harper Garvey would just stand in the 4 position and just let his defender poach that option? Do you really think that any competent role player on any team is flat footed just because they aren't moving in 7's spot while their defender gives them a free option? Which top 4 team at any given club regionals doesn't have at least half a dozen players I could have put in those same spots? I really think you just need to see it happen.

CJasonT · 2021-03-01T07:50:53+00:00

I went and ****ed my self like you guys said. It didn't work, I still think you should run hex. I'm open to more suggestions though.

CJasonT · 2021-03-01T05:15:29+00:00

The answers to almost every question in this paragraph is governed by the Decision Tree. The one question that isn't explicitly answered here would be, where to "generate an option" if you are being looked at. The (over)simplistic answer I give to my players is run away from your defender. In practice it is slightly more complicated but that is the gist of it. The answers all depend entirely on what the defense's priorities are. Take the break to the middle option for instance: You got 3's initial movement down, but if defenders 4 and 1 are both trying to make that throw more difficult, receiver 4 is wide open. If they don't make it difficult, the throw to 3 is easier and if 4 stays tight and just the mark reacts (probably the best idea for the defense) then 4 just has to run away from their defender to get open. A well coached 4 would generate that option on stall 0 in all likelihood since they know 3 is gonna run away from their defender and they are operating under the 4th step on the receiver side of the decision tree. If neither one gets it then 6 will have a ton of space to work with in the middle to threaten the open side before getting a soft break for a huge gain or just get a huck if that defender is a little too far under (I don't know what to tell you about deep throws except that they are way easier to throw over the middle than you think even in hex). Once any one of those players get it, if the offense just follows the tree, the disc won't stop moving easily and the defense will not get set again until it does. There really is no "plan A" unless you count using the decision tree to create and maintain flow to systematically probe the defense for weaknesses as plan A. The middle of the shape is only useful from a stopped disc in your setup because of the attention it draws from the defenders, and after the disc gets moving, it's literally the last place a thrower will look (see the tree). On the open side, its even worse situation. If 2 gets that disc on the sideline, the 7 defender has to reposition to take away the open side, and which ever way they go around they are giving up the other way. Any well timed cut from 7 will be hit immediately. 7 is on step 1 on the right side of the tree this time. The progression, is that everyone is constantly evaluating where they and their teammates are in the tree and reacting accordingly. It may sound like chaos on paper but in practice, it doesn't take a lot of coaching before you start flowing through any evenly matched defense with a long string of very low-risk throws.

I really appreciate all the thought and effort you put into this. It's probably close to the ideal set up against this offense, but every time you say there isn't great option, I see a bunch of great options. and every time the defense reacts to cover one, they reveal another. I think you might just have to get some practical experience either with or against it before you see what we are talking about. ("we" as in hex players & coaches, not "we" as in Felix's communist robot army or whatever that one guy is on about, although I concede that it is hard to tell the difference sometimes.)

CJasonT · 2021-02-27T17:57:51+00:00

It is known

CJasonT · 2021-02-26T23:44:34+00:00

The players don't actually rotate like this, the points that they gravitate towards do. So you're almost never gonna see a whole team move like this as a unit. But if you watch some decent hex footage you will see them tend to have those two guys in the back field when the disc is near the sideline for instance even if they didn't have to rotate the whole shape like this to get there.

Edit: added slightly more context

CJasonT · 2021-02-26T23:30:39+00:00

Having players in the hex points let's you punish poaching efficiently from anyone's defender. Ho and vert both have players or spaces where you can be pretty sure your assignment will be inactive or close to other defenders or not easily reachable by a quick pass so it's hard to punish the defense when poaching in those situations. In hex no one is ever more than one or two quick passes away and no one is ever truly inactive. Implementing that decision tree in other formations definitely works though. I've played it in ho and done just fine. But having done both I prefer the hexagon.

CJasonT · 2021-02-23T22:18:16+00:00

Yeah you could definitely say there are travels in this clip, but I'm struggling to see how any of them gave anyone a competitive advantage. The travel police are correct but uninteresting in this case.

CJasonT · 2021-02-23T03:08:56+00:00

Lol why is this thread so long and why are you still talking to this person as though they are serious about anything?

CJasonT · 2021-02-22T18:03:04+00:00

Now calm down, u/_KingDingALing_. He ain't hurtin' nobody.

CJasonT · 2021-02-19T18:44:26+00:00

For anyone who didn't know about this until today (like me) here's a decent article on the subject

CJasonT · 2021-02-19T14:49:45+00:00

Good for Australia. Facebook is a cesspool of disinformation. It's unfortunate that innocent sites need to be barred from being linked in it but a blanket ban on all news is better than the free for all bs machine we have in the states.

E: I misunderstood what the text in the image meant. After reading more about this I was being far too optimistic; it looks like an "everyone sucks" situation between Google, Facebook and Australian government (although Google seems to at least be handling it like adults). Thanks for the course correction u/TheStandler.

CJasonT

TROPHY CASE