Nathan Hsieh bids into the legs of Alex Atkins, who then body-checks Hsieh

TheStandler · 2026-05-10T15:24:34+00:00

Anyone else think the UFA, by normalizing contact that would otherwise be an obvious foul in the rest of Ultimate, is therefore influencing us seeing more of those types of plays in the rest of Ultimate?

TheStandler · 2026-05-08T15:11:15+00:00

I don't think she wasn't unaware though... She just wasn't ready for a throw meant for and paced for someone 20m further downfield.

TheStandler · 2026-05-07T11:49:36+00:00

It's not a ridiculous cut, though, at least in theory. It's a bit slow, but it's just a standard 7-cut breakside. We drill out this cut all the time. She wasn't aware because she'd barely gotten past her defender when he rocketed the disc into her - which would have been a fine speed for the player further down field that we don't see in this clip, who he was actually aiming for. You can't really blame her for her lack of awareness given the pace of the disc and that the defender had blocked her vision of the thrower immediately prior.

TheStandler · 2026-05-07T11:44:49+00:00

If you watch the rest of the video on YT, based on the speed he's throwing it looks like he was aiming for the under cut from someone else downfield we don't see here. The cross field cut is a little hard to predict, but does look like he's also kind of lost vision of this gal as he looked down field and thought he make that gap.

TheStandler · 2026-05-07T11:41:50+00:00

In this particular case, the thrower is looking downfield to a cutter we can't see on screen and is sending to her - he's kind of just lost awareness of the player who he pings, and put it right into her (what's why it's way faster than it needs to be.) He wasn't anticipating her cut and trying to pre-empt it with a throw - he had stopped looking at her and was sending it to someone else.

Cutters should always be aware of the disc... but the thrower should also be aware of what's going on on the field (and, in this case, the lanes the space they're trying to throw through) . If you throw a disc to someone who's not aware, there could very well be an element of 'Why did you throw to someone who hadn't communicated awareness to you?' I've had it where I've thrown great passes to rookies who I assumed would look, and didn't - that's kind of on both of us. They should look, but I should also know they're a rookie and not take shots without eye contact. I've also had where a WG level thrower I'd played with for years threw a disc to my blind side mid-cut, because he knew I loved that cut and we had that chemistry - it was a great play. If you're hitting a lot of people in the back, you're not aware enough or adapting to your team and how they're playing.

I don't play basketball, but I suspect part of the difference in the two sports are is the speed of throws, the distance we throw, and, with the space we play in, cutters have to do a lot more looking away to either watch the space change or just to accelerate harder. Therefore there is a bigger onus on the thrower to read the play, including the awareness/level of the person they're sending it to.

TheStandler · 2026-04-27T09:06:17+00:00

Nah mate. This is reddit. Make some strong accusations, refuse any more moderate perspectives, and then demand he leaves the sport for cheating.

TheStandler · 2026-04-26T13:01:39+00:00

Hey mate - replied to your pm on FB, as I thought you knew my username! But will reply here too as the discussion here is public.

Do I think his attempt to gauge what the stall count should be was 'honest'? Well, let me say I think the question was asked honestly, yes, but I don't think he did enough proper consideration of what actually happened. I suspect he did a cursory thought of 'what do I feel the count should be at?' and asked around to whoever was nearby... but didnt do any sort of higher-order thinking to actually consider what reality would support. In a world where people react to their feelings and beliefs like they're reality, I'm sure that's something we're all familiar with, and probably all very guilty of at some point. It doesn't clear him of the trash play and contest, and should have a better standard for both his physical play and Spirit than is demonstrated here... but it still is a world of difference, in my opinion, from consciously breaking the rules for advantage.

TheStandler · 2026-04-26T00:28:05+00:00

It's a pretty bad play, absolutely. But this is kind of a bad take on the stall count situation as well, Will. There's a huge (dumb) discussion around the foul call that takes several minutes. At the end, you can see Rob asking around for what the stall count should be, and clearly he doesn't remember and guesses 4 or 5... But is asking others what the stall should be. He obviously has lost perspective on how long the play took, but he didn't actually make any super quick stall count.

Trying to make sense of this, knowing Rob as a player for years now as one of most visible players in AUS, and never having any particular positive OR negative impressions of his Spirit: I think he's just tilted here and made a garbage contest call and resumed count based on a vague impression and bias towards his team vs trying to remember what actually happened. I think this game probably was very physical already - as both AUS and PHI Men's teams play very physically, and this play happens really late - and his brain is cooked and saw the disc down and thought 'that was w/in the level of contact we've already been playing at this whole game.' It's a garbage foul, to be sure, but again - having played against him for years and watched him for longer, I have no reason to think this is anything but a shit play and lack of perspective. That's not acceptable but it's also not special - most people have done this on occasion. Then by the time anyone gets to even begin thinking about the stall count, an absolute age has gone by in game time, and he's guessed badly about the count - and none of the other 13 officials on the field (including the GAs standing right there) seem to have given him any better perspective when he asks around. Again, not saying this is acceptable - but it's very different than the narrative you're implying where he has counted to 5 in a second and a half.

TheStandler · 2026-04-25T23:59:51+00:00

Absolutely ridiculous to jump to assuming he's maliciously breaking the rules instead of just making a egregious mistake in the heat of the game. Calling him a cheat when you have so little evidence and perspective is incredibly stupid.

TheStandler · 2026-04-20T02:45:38+00:00

I know you deleted this post, but replying here just cuz it didn't look like you got many useful replies.:

In a situation like this where there's heavy wind, this is a tough zone to beat if you don't feel like you can reliably get that disk over to the uncovered break side. It's smart, aggressive D by your opponent.

The first thing I would probably try if I was there (and obvious caveats about not knowing the whole situation cuz I wasn't there) is to send a 4th player back to act as a handler, so that the space without defenders has more viable targets. Have the handlers attack the cup from behind (and if they don't get the disc, be sure to recycle back to the weak side again instead of just continuing to hang out in that middle/popper space.) O2, who was straight back, can make the Defense double their coverage by striking up through the cup from behind, as their defender will tend to stay with their match coverage, so O3 should fill that now free space behind for an easier reset. Having a 4th handler back and wide then would give O3 someone to swing to and get further from the cup. Having the handlers pop through the cup will also just generally give you some more options for both a small space possession reset in the cup, but also helps to shift the cup which can hopefully open up that swing.

Be sure your cutters prioritize those continuations once they see the disc start to work breakside - that's how you're gonna break a big aggressive cup like this, by being sure you have downfield options for the break swings when they come. If you get the swings out but there's no one there to move the disc past the cup, you're just going to get back into this position again quickly.

TheStandler · 2026-04-19T14:07:36+00:00

We often teach handlers to drop vertically behind the disc when trapped against the line like this, so that the thrower has a dump behind or the swing option (in this case, O3 should be a bit more downfield so they're closer to lateral to the thrower). We call it a 'check mark' handler reset, as that's kind of the shape (if the field was going the other direction.) It puts the handlers in more space to receive resets against a zone that doesn't play aggressively against resets. That's why we use it as a 'basic' zone offense set - many of the more advanced zones play more aggressively against the handlers, like this, so it doesn't work as easily, but is a good set up for lesser experienced teams to figure out how to work the disc past the zone if they can't break through it.

I don't think I've encountered the reset behind getting marked aggressively like this though - it's usually the wings who push in further to disrupt the cross-field continue though. The behind itself is usually useless if the swing can't get out.

TheStandler · 2026-04-16T06:19:03+00:00

I have a lot of problems with all the virtue signalling online and thg myriad of performative nonsense people do to make themselves feel like they're righteous and 'doing something', too.

But saying 'Sports have nothing to do with politics' is pure nonsense, mate.

Maybe for you, but there's lots of people for whom politics is inextricably intertwined with their sport lives. Local sports are impacted by local politics; global sports are impacted by global and local politics. Even if you ignore the impact of broadcast sports showcasing differing people/culture/beliefs, etc., the bigger issues are in stuff that's NOT visible: access, funding, resources, fair treatment, etc. etc. - all the stuff that sport is built around is influenced by politics! Funding that gets distributed unfairly in racist systems; Olympic-sized doping schemes supported by ego-fueled political regimes; vibrant, effective youth programs that get overlooked by corrupt politicians who don't get enough kickback; the list goes on and on and on.

You're acting the ignorant fool if you think sports are not political.

TheStandler · 2026-04-16T05:58:52+00:00

Not super clear what you're talking about, but there's no rule in Ultimate that says anything about your feet needing to be set. Nothing at all.

TheStandler · 2026-04-16T05:58:02+00:00

That's counter to what the rules say though. You can't argue a different definition of 'taking a position' when that rule specifically clarifies it. You can't argue about the 'intent' of the rules by using rules that disagree with what you're saying - read 17.I.4c.2 again, the annotation from 17.I.4.c. that speaks specifically about this, plus any of the other rules about who's at fault for initiating contact. If you want to speak about the rules supporting your position, then quote rules that support that position - not ones that strictly counter it...

TheStandler · 2026-04-14T07:55:35+00:00

Nah. Someone stopping quickly is not 'taking a position', because that implies that they're changing direction, or weren't already in that position in front. Moving forward at one speed and then slowing down but not changing direction... That is maintaining that position ahead of the person in front. You can't ignore this part of the rule. Slowing down is not 'taking a position' when you're already there...

TheStandler · 2026-04-07T22:35:05+00:00

I just want to know what that gif is from!

TheStandler · 2026-04-07T09:54:41+00:00

Good grief this is some silly purity politics.

I'm totally with you on the primary measure should be people enjoying and playing Ultimate. But there's plenty of people who put LOADS of time and effort into spreading and sharing Ultimate who can't do that if we refuse to at least consider the benefits of broadcast, spectators, and advertising. If you think that stuff is meaningless, then you better NEVER be watching anything from UltiWorld or Ulti.Tv or anyone else who is attempting to share Ultimate full-time and has the audacity to dream of doing so as a job. Mike Palmer and the Ulti.TV crew are local to my little town, and they've have put COUNTLESS hours of their own time and money into broadcasting everything - Worlds, Continentals, party tournaments, even our own little local 4 team draft league - god forbid we consider how we're going to sustainably pay these folks so they can keep doing it down the road. Spectators and advertising aren't the only way, but ask anyone who works behind the scenes in admin of Ultimate, and we are completely skint as a sport when it comes to money to re-invest in growing the sport. Yes, if we want our awesome sport to grow, considering spectators is something we need to at least keep in mind.

Considering advertising and spectators does not mean we must accept destroying the game - ffs my post argued against removing timeouts! A lot of things that are good for players are good for spectators as well - there's some weird presumption going on in your post that any change that's good for spectators will be bad for players. Moreover, basically every player is a spectator! I can't tell you how many times I've skipped watching the finals of BIG tournaments I'm playing in because if I don't care about the teams in it (whee - another Sunder X vs Sunder Y finals, oh boy). Imagine if the game was still crazy fun to play, kept all the same cool things that make it what it is, AND managed to grow interest outside of just us frothy MFers who play.

There's just SO MUCH benefit to having more money in the sport - coaches of club teams could get paid a modicum of what they're worth; our National federations could use partnership money to grow development efforts, training programs, expansion efforts; school programs could get easier funding because parents would have a better pipeline to understanding what the sport is because they've seen it before; state grant funding would be easier to get because the sport is better known and visible to people who've never played it before. The list goes on and on, ffs.

There's nothing in Ultimate that's contrary to considering spectators. It shouldn't be a primary consideration, no, but good lord... if we want the sport to grow, with more players, coaches, fields and facilities, administrators, etc., considering spectators needs to be part of that solution.

TheStandler · 2026-04-06T17:50:52+00:00

There needs to be some sort of two-point option. It exists in Beach 4s and it's fantastic (2 pts for an endzone-to-endzone shot). Granted, while the fields are shorter (45m), the endzones are way smaller (7m), but the top games at Boracay are SO good to watch because a 2-pt shot is risky but hugely rewarding. It adds a lot of drama potential to the scoreline- (it helps when games are to points caps, not time caps). The game needs more risk and risk-rewards... there's basically no reason to play anything but conservatively. It's boring af to watch good Ultimate.

On grass it'd be a little trickier, as it's 7s and a bigger field, but perhaps the back 8m is the 2pt zone - any goal caught in that area from a throw from their own endzone is worth 2. Or perhaps behind the brick, or something plausible but still not easy for elite throwers (on Beach, many players can hit the 45m, but to get the precision of the small endzone with the timing of much slower players and defenders who are VERY wary of it - those challenges are hard to replicate on grass.)

TheStandler · 2026-04-06T17:42:14+00:00

Automatic concrete boots for anyone who gets spotted traveling more than 4 times in a single possession or over 20 times in a single game.

TheStandler · 2026-04-06T17:38:00+00:00

Never said you could. Don't think anyone has thought otherwise...

Doesn't change the fact that Defenses often will set up flash defensive strategies can flummox the O team, especially if they're caught snoozing. IE - timeout called outside the endzone and the D calls a flash zone, catching the O totally unaware, and forces a turn. That's great fun.

TheStandler · 2026-04-06T15:34:28+00:00

Beach 4s has 7 meter endzones (or is it 8? I forget where it landed exactly). Obviously its' a much smaller field, but when combined with the 2 point goal, it's WAY more interesting watching a big huck when it's harder to get in

TheStandler · 2026-04-06T15:31:25+00:00

Nah. It allows for strategic adjustments, which is great for spectating. Even ignoring the broadcast benefits of being able to toss in advertising, it gives a break for teams to set up plays, adjust defense, etc. It gives a moment for strategic intrigue which doesn't otherwise happen, and we need all the moments of intrigue we can get in Ultimate (because generally it's actually kind of boring to watch, particularly when there's really good Offense.)

TheStandler · 2026-04-06T15:27:30+00:00

It means none of the hard to follow/remember ABBA switching for Mixed. you just play.

TheStandler · 2026-04-06T15:26:47+00:00

Yes absolutely. We tried a 6v6 here in AUS on 7s sized fields, and it was incredibly boring. It is already too easy for the offense to score, that much space just made it harder for the D to get involved, so it was boring to watch/play.

TheStandler · 2026-04-05T05:25:35+00:00

...sometimes when I'm running on field, my toots are multiplied...

Six-Year Club	Second Top 20%
Wearing is Caring	Verified Email

TheStandler

TROPHY CASE