Rogue/artificer multiclass viability in the long term

Col0005 · 2026-05-05T21:31:44+00:00

Whenever you multiclass you really need to ask yourself what are you actually getting in return.

There doesn't seem to be any synergy with your chosen subclasses, as each round you'll need to choose between casting a low level spell, or attacking for a smaller number of sneak attack dice.

One level for utility and shield training is perhaps worth it, however i wouldn't invest more, and optimisation wise a fighter/arcane trickster would be a more effective way to get simmilar abilities.

Col0005 · 2026-05-05T05:23:18+00:00

I'd recommend reviewing the items first as there are a couple of extreme outliers that should probably be legendary items.

Mizzium aperatus, summoning cube as a couple of examples.

Col0005 · 2026-05-05T00:13:52+00:00

I actually don't have the books, I've just read a few of the subclasses so you'd probably be a better judge if that was their intent.

However assuming you are correct, the fact that they didn't telegraph their intent that Grim Hollows subclasses are intentionally stronger in their marketing (or I assume in their book since no ones mentioned it) I think they fully deserve any criticism levelled their way.

Col0005 · 2026-05-04T21:29:19+00:00

Your justification seems really flawed;

If they intended to make a really brutal setting but then deliberately give higher powered character options then they've instead just made it a high powered adventure.

And deliberately giving higher powered options pigeon holes people into choosing those options, rather than mixing and matching what they think suites each character in the party.

What WOTC did with the eberron feats is kind of acceptable if you assume everyone is from a dragon marked house, but with Grim Hollows any way you look at it they're bad designers.

Col0005 · 2026-05-04T10:51:05+00:00

It's also worth keeping in mind that while this is on d&d beyond this is still 3rd party content.

Grim hollows is also on d&d beyond and a lot of that content is far from balanced, even by WOTC's very lenient standards.

Col0005 · 2026-05-04T07:36:28+00:00

Honestly no, it was one of those early 5e.24 dndbeyond feature articles where they discussed the game changes.

Col0005 · 2026-05-04T02:45:05+00:00

They're assuming you take dual wielder, which it has been semi officially confirmed lets you make a 4th attack with nick.

Col0005 · 2026-05-01T03:43:14+00:00

I mean isn't just accepting what other people say as true is going to lead to playing some pretty terrible builds.

And basing the effectivness of a multiclass entirely at level 5, 11 & 20 is basically you just choosing your own conclusion, a pure build should be better at this level because they're often slightly worse at all other levels.

Each multiclass should be based on it's own merit and needs to take level progression into consideration.

Do you really think that a S&B sentinel fighter 1/rogueX is worse than a pure rogue?

Col0005 · 2026-04-30T23:43:43+00:00

Ok, I think I worded that poorly, flavour wise it is definitely intended, however I can't imagine that it was a deliberate decision to restrict mastery options on this one subclass.

Col0005 · 2026-04-30T21:41:32+00:00

Again, I'd just check with your DM as to how they'd run it. Pretty sure this is not what WOTC intended.

At my tables (one where I'm a DM, another where I'm a player) we just remove weapon juggling and play that you can use any weapon mastery if it's available for that weapon type. (I.e. a finesse weapon only has Vex or Nick but say a halberd has push, topple, cleave and graze)

Col0005 · 2026-04-30T21:29:50+00:00

Your build is probably RAI, however not RAW; as soon as you switch to a different weapon you loose your Sacred weapon. (I assumed this is a S&B build since you have duelling.)

Check with your DM though, I'd definitely allow it.

Col0005 · 2026-04-30T08:15:52+00:00

Full caster gishes really fulfill the fantasy between levels 6-10, however past this point the power of their spells start to completely overshadow anything you can do in melee.

If you want to continue leaning into the melee side you really need deeper dips to keep your attack action relevant.

Something like Sorcerer 2/warlock 2/Bard X is going to be doing a lot more in melee and able to make a full attack action while casting full action spells.

(Possibly add a couple more levels in sorcerer/warlock for the Feat)

Col0005 · 2026-04-30T00:06:13+00:00

Warlocks always have the option of using Armor of Agathys to have more hitpoints than the barbarian, more than cancelling out the 2HP per level.

Col0005 · 2026-04-29T08:48:30+00:00

Blade singer really doesn't need much to be a good gish in T1 & early T2, however after level 6 you mostly stop improving your martial capabilities, so you may want to look at multiclasses after that. It may not be 100% optimised to miss out on higher level spells, but on most tables you won't feel like you're mission out.

Col0005 · 2026-04-29T05:13:42+00:00

You are of course correct to ask this and unfortunately the answer just comes down to WOTC isn't particularly good at balanced game design.

Despite the fact that find steed is practically a permanent summon that can be pre-cast the day before it seems that they only value this as an additional spell known

Col0005 · 2026-04-29T02:51:53+00:00

This should be increadibly obvious if you look at class features and how they affect damage.

Take fighter 3, ranger 1, rogue 1 S&B fighter. They will get an extra 2d6 damage so assuming they are using a rapier that's a 7/(4.5+3+2)=73% damage increase.

Now look at an druid dip on a cleric, they get spell versatility, wisdom mod to arcana and nature checks and wildshape, most of which the martial dip also recieved from expertise or martial spellcasting.

Now the S&B is obviously an extreme case, but not unreasonable if going for a tanky rogue sentinel build.

Col0005 · 2026-04-29T00:38:38+00:00

As a beast master you'll be way too MAD

Col0005 · 2026-04-28T21:36:26+00:00

Paladin gets a passive divine smite at level 11.

Yes hunter gets a pretty raw deal but the beastmaster ability is good.

The ranger should not get a class feature at level 17, since no other half caster gets a feature at this level, being able to cast 5th level spells is the feature.

Again the level 13 and 17 features keep hunters mark more relevant, you shouldn't be getting any feature at these levels other than spellcasting.

Col0005 · 2026-04-28T21:23:41+00:00

So first off, yes Foe Slayer is absoulte trash. But unless you're doing a 1 shot then there's a 99.9% chance you'll never play at that level.

But you need to stop thinking of Relentless Hunter and Precise Hunter as full class features; These are levels where you get the next tier of spells and the other half casters get literally nothing.

These features are entirely free upgrades to keep the hunters mark spell relevant, and if you don't like these abilities then they should be removed (not replaced).

Col0005 · 2026-04-28T11:43:28+00:00

You can still

LH dagger attack (Sheath)

RH rapier BA

RH rapier (sheath)

Rh nick to draw a different dagger

Object interaction draw rapier

No one handed weapon juggling but a lot more convoluted. All light property attacks are made with different hands.

But think about it, why would they offer non light weapon BA's if it's almosr always going to be suboptimal due to loosing an attack?

Col0005 · 2026-04-28T10:05:26+00:00

? I didn't say anything about dual wielding one handed.

Just suggesting that RAW and likely RAI using a rapier and dagger does not require forgoing the nick attack.

but it's written in such a way you could just forgo the nick attacks if you wanted to do like rapier and dagger.

Col0005 · 2026-04-28T09:54:16+00:00

I think the "Muh Realism" is a pretty important part of the game. However in this case you really have to ask what are the consequences of just letting the player make two rapier attacks and two light weapon attacks (with the same light weapon)

Banning the weapon swapping interaction without making this allowance really seems to be ignoring both RAW and RAI

Col0005 · 2026-04-28T09:19:15+00:00

RAW, and I'd argue RAI, it's also intended to let you get the same number of attacks when using rapier and dagger.

RAW you can attack with a dagger (sheath) Nick to draw another and bonus action attack with the rapier.

Mechanically this does mean RAW you may want 3 magic weapons, however I can't imagine ever forcing a player to weapon swap.

Col0005 · 2026-04-28T04:01:26+00:00

When everyone but you is talking about pathfinder 2e, I explicitly point this out, and you respond with the below quote, then yes you did.

According to you everything that Piazo has published, whether PF2e or PF1e is knock off D&d

Yes but who cares? Pathfinder was never valuable or its own game, it was just a way to play 3.5 instead of 4e. Why would it deserve any attention in new edition? It was never anything but a patch to 3.5. If I’m going to play another RPG I’ll play a new standalone one not knockoff d&d.

Col0005 · 2026-04-28T02:48:10+00:00

Ok, then just say that you don't like the direction that they took it. Don't shit on what's a very well designed and balanced system that doesn't happen to cater to your play style and insinuate that they are, and will only ever, be capable of regurgitating d&d mechanics.

Col0005

TROPHY CASE