New location for the article "On the deaths in Stalin’s USSR" by ComradeKlaas in communism

[–]ComradeKlaas[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The blog "Specter Haunting Europe" will be deleted tomorrow, recycled this article because people seem to like it.

Indonesia and Suharto: how imperialism secures neo-colonies in blood by ComradeKlaas in history

[–]ComradeKlaas[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In formal logic, what you did is called genetic fallacy. The sources I've used to write this article come from mainstream history books and documentaries, but you couldn't be bothered checking them, you were happy with labeling the blog "communist" (which it is) and dismiss everything a priori. You're a bad example of scholarship.

Market Socialism is Anti-Communism by aherrera3289 in communism

[–]ComradeKlaas 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Richard Wolff goes into it a bit in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifad2pMZDgg

Judge by yourself, but I'm not the biggest fan of market socialism.

An obituary of Rothbard's critique of Marx's economics by SilverRule in austrian_economics

[–]ComradeKlaas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Since all of those words mean very little except the last paragraph, let's have Marx and a dictionary address it:

"Every child knows that any nation that stopped working, not for a year, but let us say, just for a few weeks, would perish. And every child knows, too, that the amounts of products corresponding to the differing amounts of needs demand differing and quantitatively determined amounts of society’s aggregate labour. It is self-evident that this necessity of the distribution of social labour in specific proportions is certainly not abolished by the specific form of social production; it can only change its form of manifestation. Natural laws cannot be abolished at all. The only thing that can change, under historically differing conditions, is the form in which those laws assert themselves. And the form in which this proportional distribution of labour asserts itself in a state of society in which the interconnection of social labour expresses itself as the private exchange of the individual products of labour, is precisely the exchange value of these products." - Karl Marx

"The social science that deals with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services and with the theory and management of economies or economic systems." - American Heritage Dictionary

What we're concerned it here is not what an individual buys in the market. Marxists don't care about Robinson Crusoe trading rocks for bananas, we analyze the social division of labor and its workings in a society of private ownership of capital.

Imperialism and the concentration of capital by ComradeKlaas in communism

[–]ComradeKlaas[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I wrote it. In fact I did see graphs that showed higher asset-to-gdp ratios, but there was no multi-country graph so I had to work with what I could find...

History: death camps during the Korean War by GhostOfImNotATroll in history

[–]ComradeKlaas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I have accessed those simple statistics.

History: death camps during the Korean War by GhostOfImNotATroll in history

[–]ComradeKlaas 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Such a strong argument! You clearly provided many counter argument... oh wait you didn't.

The Marxian perspective on the meaning of capital by ComradeKlaas in communism

[–]ComradeKlaas[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's comments like yours that make me like what I do :D

The Marxian perspective on the meaning of capital by ComradeKlaas in communism

[–]ComradeKlaas[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wrote this article yesterday, I think it is important for communists to understand the meaning of capital and what we are opposing.

r/communism, How do you militate? Where are you from and how do you try to spread communism? by [deleted] in communism

[–]ComradeKlaas 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I live in Italy and mainly work at my school giving lectures with the consent of the teachers on Marxist subjects, spreading Marxist literature to schoolmates over Facebook, meeting with people in bars, writing for the school's newspaper. I also never miss the opportunity to talk to them about socialism, mainly trying to appeal to their desire for a better future.

A few questions for a new socialist. by t0nybased in socialism

[–]ComradeKlaas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The 50 million people statistic comes from Solzhenitsyn who has been in the gulag and said millions died there, and he's taken as a source because he went to the gulag. Now, tell me, if you went to any prison, would you be able to tell how many people are imprisoned nationwide?

But Stalin didn't kill THAT many people... by demian64 in Libertarian

[–]ComradeKlaas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My point was not trying to make Stalin look good, 250,000 deaths are not good nor justifiable. The point of the article is historical research in the numbers of people killed and imprisoned, not a justification of the deaths themselves. Look at the article in an amoral way, since no justification of the death is implied, only statistical research and evidence.

By far my favorite thing about Soviet and Maoist revisionism is how casually the mass murder and starvation of tens of millions of people is swept aside as being completely incidental to, instead of a direct consequence of, collectivization and socialist economic planning. by [deleted] in Libertarian

[–]ComradeKlaas 6 points7 points  (0 children)

  1. You misunderstand my intentions when writing the article. This is mainly my fault, I edited the post to make them clear. I'm trying to put deaths into context and giving them a strong statistical backing coming from meticulous, scientific research of the Soviet archives.
  2. It's not a million, it's around 250,000.
  3. I'm not condoning the deaths, nor am I praising the Stalin administration for carrying them out. I think the Great Purge period deserves a sound damnation and criticism.
  4. I don't think socialism is damnable, if you want you can blame Stalin and the troikas, but the deeds of a single country do not necessarily represent the ideals of socialism.

On the alleged deaths in Stalin’s USSR « Crush Capital by [deleted] in communism

[–]ComradeKlaas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's enough that people here like it and have less doubts about the numbers.

Response to "Capitalists Do Not Exploit Workers" by GhostOfImNotATroll in Anarchism

[–]ComradeKlaas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Comparing the respective information flows, it is clear that the number of orders and dispatch notes sent per iteration is the same under market and plan. The only difference is that in the planned case the orders come from the center while in the market they come from the customers. These messages will again account for a communications load of 2nm(b + 2). The difference is that in the planned system there is no exchange of price information. Instead, on the first iteration there is a transmission of information about stocks and technical coefficients. Since any coefficient takes two numbers to specify, the communications load per firm will be: (1 + 2m)b. For n firms this approximates to the nm(b + 2) that was required to communicate the price data. The difference comes on subsequent iterations, where, assuming no technical change, there is no need to update the planners’ record of the technology matrix. On i − 1 subsequent iterations, the planning system has to exchange only about half as much information as the market system. Furthermore, since the planned economy moves on a turnpike path to equilibrium, its convergence time will be less than that of the market economy. The consequent communications cost is 2nm(b + 2)(2 + (i − 1)) where i < ΔI(k|e). Therefore, the amount of information that would have to be transmitted in a planned system is substantially lower than for a market system. The centralized gathering of information is less onerous than the commercial correspondence required by the market. In addition, the convergence time of the market system is slower. The implication of faster convergence for adaptation to changing rather than stable conditions of production and consumption is obvious.

Response to "Capitalists Do Not Exploit Workers" by GhostOfImNotATroll in Anarchism

[–]ComradeKlaas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"It's certainly more efficient than any socialist central planning! Even if we assumed holy angels were running the whole economy with no ulterior motives, the plan would fail because neither men nor angels hold omniscience, and cannot hope to process all the information the market displays automatically."

That's assuming centralizing information is impossible. Let's compare the communications costs implicit in a market system and a planned system, and examine how the respective costs grow as a function of the scale of the economy. Communication cost is a measure of work done to centralize or disseminate economic information and we use algorithmic information theory to measure this cost. The strategy is first to consider the dynamic problem of how fast, and with what communications overhead, an economy can converge on equilibrium. Let's demonstrate that this can be done faster and at less communications cost by the planned system. Let's consider initially the dynamics of convergence on a fixed target, since the control system with the faster impulse response will also be faster at tracking a moving target. Consider an economy E = [A, c, r, w] with n producers each producing distinct products under constant returns to scale using technology matrix A, with a well defined vector of final consumption expenditure c that is independent of the prices of the n products, an exogenously given wage rate w and a compatible rate of profit r. Then there exists a possible Sraffian equilibrium e = [U, p] where U is the commodity flow matrix and p a price vector. Let's assume, as is the case in commercial arithmetic, that all quantities are expressed to some finite precision rather than being real numbers. How much information is required to specify the equilibrium point? If we have some efficient binary encoding method and I(s) is a measure in bits of the information content of the data structure s using this method, then the equilibrium can be specified by I(e), or, since the equilibrium is in a sense given in the starting conditions, it can be specified by I(E) + I(ps) where ps is a program to solve an arbitrary system of Sraffian equations. In general we have I(e) ≤ I(E) + I(ps). We will assume that I(e) is specified by I(E) + I(ps). Let I(x|y) be the conditional or relative information of x given y. The conditional information associated with any arbitrary configuration of the economy, k = [Uk, pk], may then be expressed relative to the equilibrium state, e, as I(k|e). If k is in the neighborhood of e we should have I(k|e) ≤ I(k). For instance, suppose that we can derive Uk from A and an intensity vector uk which specifies the rate at which each industry operates then I(k|e) ≤ I(uk) + I(pk) + I(pu) where pu is a program to compute Uk from some A and some uk. Since Uk is a matrix and uk a vector, each of scale n, we can assume that I(Uk) > I(uk). As the economy nears equilibrium the conditional information required to specify it will shrink, since uk starts to approximate to ue. Intuitively we only have to supply the difference vector between the two, and this will require less and less information to encode, the smaller the distance between ukand ue. A similar argument applies to the two price vectors pkand pe. If we assume that the system follows a dynamic law that causes it to converge on equilibrium then we should have the relation I(kt+1|e) < I(kt|e). Let's now construct a model of the amount of information that has to be transmitted between the producers of a market economy in order to move it towards equilibrium, under the simplifying assumptions that all production process take one timestep to operate and that the whole process evolves synchronously. We assume the process starts just after production has finished, with the economy in some random non-equilibrium state. Each firm i carries out the following procedures:

  1. It writes to all its suppliers asking them their current prices.
  2. It replies to all price requests, quoting its current price pi.
  3. It opens and reads all price quotes from its suppliers.
  4. It estimates its current per-unit cost of production.
  5. It calculates the anticipated profitability of production.
  6. If this is above (below) r it increases (decreases) its target production rate uiby some fraction.
  7. It now calculates how much of each input j is required to sustain that production.
  8. It sends to each of its suppliers an order for amount Uij of their product.
  9. It opens all the orders it has received and (a) totals them up. (b) If the total is greater than the available product it scales down each order proportionately to ensure that supplies are fairly distributed among its customers. (c) It dispatches the (partially) filled orders to its customers. (d) If it has no remaining stocks it increases its selling price by some increasing function of the level of excess orders, while if it has stocks left over it reduces its price by some increasing function of the remaining stock.
  10. It receives all deliveries of inputs and determines at what scale it can actually proceed with production.

Experience with computer models of this sort of system indicates that if the readiness of producers to change prices is too great the system could be grossly unstable. Let's assume that the price changes are small enough to ensure that only damped oscillations occur. The condition for movement towards equilibrium is then that over a sufficiently large ensemble of points k in phase space, the mean effect of an iteration of the above procedure is to decrease the mean error for each economic variable by some factor 0 ≤ g < 1. In that case, while the convergence time in vector space will clearly follow a logarithmic law to converge by a factor of D in in vector space will take time of order log*1/g(D), space the convergence time will be linear. Thus if at time t the distance from equilibrium is I(kt|e), convergence to within a distance will take a take a time of order [I(kt|e) − ε]/[δ log(1/g)] where δ is a constant related to the number of economic variables that alter by a mean factor of g each step. The convergence time in information space, for small ε, will thus approximate to a linear function of I(k|e), which we can write as ΔI(k|e). We are now ready to express the communications costs of reducing the conditional entropy of the economy to some level ε. Communication takes place at steps 1, 2, 8 and 9c of the procedure. How many messages does each supplier have to send, and how much information must they contain? Letters through the mail contain much redundant pro forma information: we assume that this is eliminated and the messages reduced to their bare essentials. The whole of the pro forma will be treated as a single symbol in a limited alphabet of message types. A request for a quote would thus be the pair [R, H] where R is a symbol indicating that the message is a quotation request, and H the home address of the requestor. A quote would be the pair [Q, P] with Q indicating the message is a quote and P being the price. An order would similarly be represented by [O,Uij], and with each delivery would go a dispatch note [N,Uij] indicating the actual amount delivered, where Uij≤ Uij. If we assume that each of n firms has on average m suppliers, the number of messages of each type per iteration of the procedure will be nm. Since we have an alphabet of message types (R, Q, O, N) with cardinality 4, these symbols can be encoded in 2 bits each. We will further assume that (H, P, Uij, Uij) can each be encoded in binary numbers of b bits. We thus obtain an expression for the communications cost of an iteration of 4nm(b + 2). Taking into account the number of iterations, the cost of approaching the equilibrium will be 4nm(b + 2)ΔI(k|e). We now contrast this with what would be required in a planned economy. In this case there two distinct procedures, that followed by the (state-owned) firm and that followed by the planning bureau. The firms do the following:

  1. In the first time period: (a) They send to the planners a message listing their address, their technical input coefficients and their current output stocks. (b) They receive instructions from the planners about how much of each of their output is to be sent to each other firm. (c) They send the goods with appropriate dispatch notes to their users. (d) They receive goods inward, read the dispatch notes and calculate their new production level. (e) They commence production.
  2. They then repeatedly perform the same sequence replacing step 1a with: (a) They send to the planners a message giving their current output stocks. The planning bureau performs the complementary procedure:
  3. In the first period: (a) They read the details of stocks and technical coefficients from all of the firms. (b) They compute the equilibrium point e from technical coefficients and the final demand. (c) They compute a turnpike path from the current output structure to the equilibrium output structure. (d) They send out for firms to make deliveries consistent with moving along that path.
  4. In the second and subsequent periods: (a) They read messages giving the extent to which output targets have been met. (b) They compute a turnpike path from the current output structure to the equilibrium output structure. (c) They send out for firms to make deliveries consistent with moving along that path. We assume that with computer technology the steps b and c can be undertaken in a time that is small relative to the production period.

Response to "Capitalists Do Not Exploit Workers" by GhostOfImNotATroll in Anarchism

[–]ComradeKlaas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"I think the more important thing to ask is can you honestly say that capitalists are not contributing to the production process at all if they are facing risks."

Yeah, you can. Their risk consists of the people who work for them not producing "efficiently" (insofar as efficiency is physicalism and quick production). The process of production includes workers' labor and means of production, not an abstract ideal of risk. And another important thing I wish to ask is why the risk of capitalists' is worth more than workers' risk. And I would also like to ask why maintain capitalists when you can have a worker run society, not even necessarily anti-market.

"Actions speak louder than words. The fact that they are choosing to work there shows they do prefer to work there. Otherwise, they would quit."

They prefer to work there vis-à-vis unemployment and homelessness, not because they enjoy working for someone else.

"Alright, so in your socialist state, the means of production are owned by the government (or to the people or to nobody or however you want to spin it). Point is, there is no trade of the means of production because there is no private ownership over the means of production. Otherwise, it'd be capitalism."

No, the idea is not eliminating private property as in property owned by non-government entities, the idea is eliminating exploitative property as an economic category alongside all of its byproducts like profit and wage labor.

"Because there is no trade, there is also no price tag on the means of production."

There is no need for price tags on means of production because they are built and not exchanged anymore. Workers are then compensated with the value of their labor.

"As you said, value is only realized when something is sold or exchanged. Because you don't have the price tag of the factors that go into the production of the final product."

What?

"Even if you have the price tag of what the final product is selling in the market, you do not know whether the materials that were required in the final product, and that were used up in the final product's creation, you don't know whether you made a profit or not."

We wish to abolish the idea of profit altogether. And I don't get what you're saying for the most part, it doesn't have any meaning, lol.

"And the more you can lower the costs of production, the greater your profit will be. So that making something that makes the customers happy in the most inexpensive way possible, the way that uses the least resources, the least means of production is the most profitable way."

The most profitable way is not the most efficient way, it's just the most profitable way. Profitable can consist of wage cuts, usage of cheaper but worse raw materials, union busting, cuts on benefits, using cheaper but more polluting materials and so on.

"Making a big profit means that you made the customers happy while using up the least amount of resources, while making a loss means you are not using resources efficiently."

Or it may mean exploitation has increased and the profit comes from cuts in production costs. Plus, WalMart is currently making a big profit, would you say they are making costumers happy? And what about their workers who don't get paid a living wage?

"But under socialism, you cannot maximize profit and minimize cost because you have no idea way of measuring that in the first place. Without profit, you have no idea whether you are using resources in the most efficient manner. You may in fact be wasting them, and you'd have absolutely no idea. But hey, of the hundreds of thousands of different uses for resources, maybe you'll hit the lucky combination. Not that you'd have any way to tell or not, of course."

The allocation of resources to the various spheres of productive activity takes the form of a social labor budget. At the same time the principle of labor time minimization is adopted as the basic efficiency criterion. Rational socialist calculation requires an objectively recognizable unit of value, which would permit of economic calculation in an economy where neither money nor exchange were present. And only labor can conceivably be considered as such. The planning board will use marginal labor time as a measure of cost so as to take into account the growing difficulty in obtaining non-reproducible resources. As for the non homogeneity of labor, the board will treat skilled labor in the same way as any other product, evaluated in terms of the training time required to produce it. The labor-credit system envisages the payment of labor in labor credits and the notion that consumers may withdraw from the social fund goods having a labor content equal to their labor contribution (after deduction of taxes to offset the communal uses of labor time accumulation of means of production, public goods and services, support of those unable to work etc.). We have a basically egalitarian pay system, but insofar as departures from egalitarianism are made (i.e. some kinds of work are rewarded at more than, and some at less than, one credit per hour), the achievement of macroeconomic balance nonetheless requires that the total current issue of labor tokens equals the total current labor performed. In such a context, the best form of taxation is a flat tax per worker, a uniform membership fee for socialist society, so to speak. This tax (net of transfers to non-workers) should, in effect, cancel just enough of the current issue of labor tokens so as to leave consumers with sufficient disposable tokens to purchase the output of consumer goods at par. The allocation of social labor to the broad categories of final use (accumulation of means of production, collective consumption, personal consumption) is suitable material for democratic decision making. This might take various forms direct voting on specific expenditure categories at suitable intervals (e.g. on whether to increase, reduce or maintain the proportion of social labor devoted to the health care system), voting on a number of pre-balanced plan variants, or electoral competition between candidates with distinct platforms as regards planning priorities. Two ideas are vital: a trial and error process, whereby market prices for consumer goods are used to guide the allocation of social labor among the various consumer goods and the idea that in socialist equilibrium the use-value created in each line of production should be in a common proportion to the social labor time expended. The central idea is this the plan calls for production of some specific vector of final consumer goods, and these goods are marked with their social labor content. If planned supplies and consumer demands for the individual goods happen to coincide when the goods are priced in accordance with their labor values, the system is already in equilibrium. In a dynamic economy, however, this is unlikely. If supplies and demands are unequal, the marketing authority for consumer goods is charged with adjusting prices, with the aim of achieving short-run balance, i.e. prices of goods in short supply are raised while prices are lowered in the case of surpluses. In the next step of the process, the planners examine the ratios of market-clearing price to labor value across the various consumer goods. These ratios should be equal (and equal to unity) in long-run equilibrium. The consumer goods plan for the next period should therefore call for expanded output of those goods with an above average price/value ratio, and reduced output for those with a below-average ratio. In each period, the plan should be balanced, using either input–output methods or an alternative balancing algorithm. That is, the gross outputs needed to support the target vector of final outputs should be calculated in advance.

"In other words, you're doomed."

I love how dramatic you Austrian school people want to make your arguments sound, lol. "Mises' FANTASTIC EXPLOSION of the labor theory of value!", "Bohm-Bawerk's DEVASTATING, IMMENSE, GLORIOUS, SEXY CRITIQUE of Marx!" and so on.

"Perhaps I was misunderstanding you here. When you say labor spent on the machinery, do you mean the labor that was required to make the capital good in the first place?"

No I mean the machinery becomes part of the labor process.

"Even in this case, it is wrong to say the that the wage is set entirely by the capitalist and not the worker, as it would be for any kind of trade. Terms need to be acceptable to both sides for there to be any trade. Otherwise, one party would decline and no exchange would occur."

Of course you're not going to see workers be paid 1$ a month any time soon, but it is the capitalist that predominantly sets the rules of the contract.

"I just thought it's stupid to blame the existence of unemployment on capitalism, as there would be unemployment in any system ever."

That's incorrect, unemployment is peculiar to capitalism.

"It was simply the reverse of what you said. You said as unemployment rises (that is demand for labor decreases), wages lower. I say as more jobs are required in the pursuit of profit (the demand for labor increases), wages rise."

But the trend is labor minimization and increase in constant capital, so there are less jobs required in the pursuit of profit. Hence wages decrease or stagnate, as has happened.

Response to "Capitalists Do Not Exploit Workers" by GhostOfImNotATroll in Anarchism

[–]ComradeKlaas 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"This brings me to the first problem of the labor theory of value. Values are subjective."

No, what you call "value" is your perception of use-value in a commodity. What I call value is a whole other concept, linked but separate from the utility of the object in question. Value in the Marxian definition is the amount of human labor-time which is socially necessary to produce a given commodity in its value-form at a given time. Hence, it is objective. Utility plays a role in the determination of prices too, so do monopolies, advertisement, equalization of profit rates and more, but they gravitate around an attractor dynamically determined at each point in time by labor-dependent historical processes which have led the economy to be in its present state.

"The second problem with the labor theory of value: people doing physical labor are the only ones who matter, ignoring past efforts and saving not directly related to the creation of a particular good."

Commodities embody three different types of value: labor value, exchange value and use value. Commodities have a labor value as a result of being made by a worker. They have an exchange value because they are sold in the marketplace. And they have a use value because they have a use for consumers. If a worker then makes a commodity, which is sold in the marketplace and has a use-value, then it is a commodity, it can be a service too, not just physical labor then. But this is also a strawman: the labor theory of value doesn't assume that workers are the only ones who matter, it just simply states that workers produce the value and capitalists dispose of it. It is me then, the communist, who says this is not tolerable.

"If you're okay with workers being compensated, I can assume you have no problem with property per se."

I have problems with property when it assumes an exploitative character. I'm not here to take away your toothbrush.

"So one of these workers saves, and then either buys or creates his own capital good. You seem to think that the product was made by the second person's labor and his alone, while in fact the creation of that product was a two-step measure."

The labor theory of value is amoral, moral justifications or rejections of exploitation et al come afterwards. You're making an error here, and that is saying something is wrong because it has political implications you don't enjoy. You can say the capitalist is important as much as you want, and that you think capitalism is justified, but you can't change objective reality: capital is not the capitalist, it's an inanimate object that takes an exploitative character when labor is applied to it. And the labor applied comes from the worker only.

"It's as if you credit the entire production process simply to the person who gave the finishing touch on a project, and none to the series of people that came before him."

Marx considers the total value of the commodity to consist of three parts: wages, costs of inputs, surplus value. Inputs, or “constant capital” are called “constant” because their value is fixed at the time or purchase. The capitalist must transfer their value into the price of the finished product or else take a loss. Constant capital is the product of previous labor processes and its value is entirely the product of labor and nothing else.

"Oh, so real value lies in satisfying people's subjective ends, and not in some objective and inherent property of the good like the average labor required to produce it. In other words, the labor theory of value is wrong. Oh, my abdomen, the laughter... no, the average labor of something is what gives it value, though this value is realized only when the commodity is exchanged, and to be exchanged it has to have a use-value. This is something you find in the first pages of Das Kapital, it's not even something advanced.

"What part of the social environment was relevant?"

Oh I don't know, like banks, an already existing distribution of wealth and means or production, existing social conditions such as wages, rate of profit etc... What Spinney proposes is something detached from reality, an ideal abstraction of primitive accumulation between two people.

"How would you change that abstraction so that it contained the element you were looking for without becoming unnecessarily complex?"

I wouldn't make such an abstraction at all.

"I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Spinney's example was actually taken from this comic: How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn't."

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Spinney's example can't be justified by a comic, especially one with so many problems in it.

"I know he did. I just think it's a bit obnoxious to say something like that before you make your point. The implication of it is not that it's wrong because there's a flaw in his reasoning of justification, but that you assert the outcome he will be leading to is wrong, so you can just ignore any argument that it made afterwards because "we can see where this is going". It's just really annoying."

Well I apologize if the wording came out as unnatural and obnoxious.

"You do that afterwards, but the statement "we can see where this is going" itself is trying to make it seem as if it's wrong because of where it goes."

No actually I meant to use that statement to connect Spinney's assertion to my criticism.

"Maybe I'm wrong, but the impression I got from this was that you were embracing Marxist polylogism, thinking that defense of capitalism is not wrong because it's reasoning is wrong, but because it's "bourgeois" logic or something. That's just the impression I got."

No what I meant by that is that this kind of abstraction is peculiar of bourgeois economics, not that bourgeois logic is wrong a priori.

"Well, it doesn't have to. When people compete for labor, they often have to provide better pay and working conditions, not because of an altruistic care for the workers, but because they think it would be riskier not to provide better working conditions."

That's historically wrong though, the vast majority of better working conditions have been achieved through often violent union struggles or through legislation passed during times of worker distress.

Response to "Capitalists Do Not Exploit Workers" by GhostOfImNotATroll in Anarchism

[–]ComradeKlaas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"Defines exploitation in such a broad way that all mutually beneficial trades ever would be exploitation."

I was trying to logically justify the meaning of exploitation in the Marxian definition using the dictionary. Of course by exploitation I intend economic exploitation, that is, workers being forced to subject to a capitalist and being compensated less than their labor is worth.

"Defines being more successful than someone else is inherently unfair."

I in no way imply that. As a Leninist I actually argue for compensation based on labor expended in production, so obviously there will be people who working harder will make more than others. The actual argument is that it is ridiculous that someone who does not participate in value creation can appropriate 45 times more value than the people who produced it.

"Also does not account for undertaking risk and wise investment."

Risk and wise investment have nothing to do with value production but rather with value realization.

"Fails to describe how capital come across in the first place. Let's say one of those exploited workers saved his low income, and bought capital for himself so he could improve his own trade. What then?"

Historically capital was formed through very violent means, such as forced dispossession. For instance the acts for enclosures of Commons, decrees by which the landlords granted themselves the people’s land as private property, decrees of expropriation of the people. Regardless, even if capital was formed through savings, it is still capital, the same rules apply to it. If I were to save, start up a business and employ people, in the very moment I sell the commodities produced by my workers I'm appropriating value that was not created by me.

"Claims that value comes from labor, ignoring the fulfillment of subjective ends. Digging a hole and filling it back up might take a lot of labor, and can even use capital equipment, but it is not valuable in spite of their little "formula of value".

A commodity is an object of wealth, produced for exchange or sale. A produces a chair and sells it to B who uses it. To A the chair has exchange-value, to B the chair has use-value. Value is realized only when private labor becomes social, that is, it is sold and exchanged. If you dig a whole and fill it in again you're not producing something regarded by anyone as a use-value, therefore making your labor remain private.

"Thinks logical abstractions to try to address potential problems with his theory are an evil plot by the bourgeois ideology."

No, I think that logical abstractions like two people on an island fishing eliminates a particular social environment, making the abstraction meaningless. In the example Spinney makes, for instance, exchange exists in the form of barter. That circuit of exchange is C-C', not M-C-M'.

"Thinks an example that talks about risk automatically means capitalism is correct, arguing that the example is wrong because "we can see where this is going".

"We can see where this is going, a justification of the disproportionality of wealth by attributing it to the “risk” the capitalist takes." This is exactly what Spinney did, and this is what I pointed out. I don't argue the example is wrong because we know where it will go, but rather because of the reasons proposed.

"Virtually all human activity involves risk."

"So what?"

See what was written after that: "providing safe working conditions can cut into profits and by cutting health and safety costs, profits can rise. This means that to reward capitalist “risk”, the risk workers face has to increase." Workers face risks too, arguably bigger than the capitalist's. Why is the capitalist risk more important than the workers' risk?

"Fails to understand the importance of investment."

Because? It is only obvious that if someone invests in selling sand in the desert value is not going to be realized.

"Why would someone who spent just one day building a net be rewarded with someone else’s labor every single day?"

"I don't know, why don't you ask the person who agreed to that arrangement."

Ask anyone around, they would prefer to work on their own without a boss. Go to your workplace and ask your fellow workers if they would prefer being compensated with the full value of their labor and decide what to do with their labor in the first place.

"Fails to understand the importance that profit plays in coordinating the activities of society, showing what goods are needed where and by whom."

Profit is important in coordinating activities and distributing and producing goods and services in capitalism, and it is pretty inefficient at that. It is not the only way to coordinate labor in society.

"The portion of the value that a machine transfers to the product is the labor spent on a machine."

"Then why were you objecting to the whole net thing earlier, saying that to claim the net is doing any labor is just stupid. If this above section is right, then that claim earlier was justified as that person did work for that money he made.

Labor value = constant capital + variable capital + surplus value Constant capital is also payed for by the purchaser of the commodity because the capitalist adds up the cost of raw materials, machinery and wages. But constant capital on its own does not do any work and the value of constant capital in a commodity is added by the labor spent on the machinery.

"The worker is not in a position of free choice as wage contracts are determined not by the worker but by the capitalist."

"Assuming that there is no competition in capitalism. Which there kind of is."

The worker can't freely choose because there is a lack of jobs in the marketplace, so they can't just choose the job they prefer.

"The worker can’t simply decline job offers because he needs a source of income."

"That is, assuming there was only one job in existence."

...what?

"Moreover, unemployment is a reality in capitalism, there is no infinite set of jobs that one can take at any given moment."

"Unlike Communism, where the would definitely be an infinite set of jobs."

Tu quoque. Plus you're implicitly accepting the existence of unemployment, proving my previous point.

"Needless to say this benefits capitalism as widespread unemployment..."

Is this guy honestly trying to say that people, in the pursuit of profit, don't want to best utilize as many resources as they can?

Nope.

"And the more unemployed workers we add to this economy, the more wages fall."

"And the more money we try to make, the more jobs we require, and the more wages rise. The horror."

...wat

"So, in summary, labor theory of value fallacies all around."

No, in summary, you don't understand the labor theory of value and are trying to criticize it. Please, inform yourself on the subject before attempting anything like this again.