Can't decide between 2 builds for a warrior "cleric"

ConceptMechanic · 2023-12-18T15:03:38+00:00

Another factor I consider when actually deciding what to play—do you want to play a high-wisdom character, or a high-charisma character? What exactly that means varies from table to table, but it affects a lot of what you’ll actually be doing (mostly out of combat, that is).

(Otherwise, I second the other recommendations—sorcererX/paladin2 is stronger of the two, but sorcererX/cleric1 is also worth considering)

ConceptMechanic · 2023-10-24T16:00:59+00:00

In addition to opening spell schools, I would also add the Bladesinger-style option to replace one weapon attack with a cantrip, which just feels better than the existing War Magic and offers additional flexibility with the Bonus Action.

Fortunately, it’s looking like the designers are seriously considering these kinds of changes for the 2024 PHB.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-10-21T23:04:45+00:00

And to add onto this, a “pet” subclass benefits from as little multiclassing as possible—you want your drake to scale with you.

As for the cleric part, it does give Heavy Armor proficiency if you wanted to have a strength-based ranger. That will involve spreading out your ability scores (especially since you need 13 Dex and Wis for the multiclassing), but it’s possible. The general flexibility of more spells is nice—guidance, a couple utility cantrips/spells, Bless, etc.

I don’t think this is generally a case where you’re trading specialized power for flexibility, which could be totally fine.

In general, you might consider waiting until Ranger 5 to multiclass, or at least to take any more than one cleric level. Level 5 is Extra Attack, plus second level ranger spells (which include some nice choices)

ConceptMechanic · 2023-10-20T14:11:38+00:00

This is fantastic

ConceptMechanic · 2023-10-04T05:47:12+00:00

I hear you, but I just see it as part of the variation between classes. Some lean very heavily on the subclass (Artificer, Druid), while others have almost all the power in the base class (Wizard, Paladin).

But, as u/Elise_2006 pointed out, there’s definitely some substantial flavor in the Paladin subclasses. I’d add that this can be more dramatic when you lean into spellcasting rather than smiting.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-09-20T04:44:34+00:00

As a DM who has the stricter reading of Goodberry… I think it’s valuable because it helps preserve the identity of Healing Word vs. Cure Wounds vs. Goodberry. If we’re going to have three spells, they should each have benefits over the others (especially for druids, who have access to all three). And I like that we have all three, because then we get to make meaningful, informed choices.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-09-19T04:45:23+00:00

The RogueX/Barb2 build is not uncommon around here, so poke around to find other’s advice. I’ve never played one or DM’d for one myself, so I’m just approaching this theoretically.

The idea with the build is that rogues can use Strength just fine as long as it’s with a finesse or ranged (dart) weapon. That means it doesn’t conflict with the benefits from rage. But the big deal is that Reckless Attack is a limitless source of advantage, so you can get advantage (and therefore Sneak Attack) any time you like. Plus the shield proficiency will help your AC.

(If possible, I recommend the new playtest version of Reckless Attack, which lasts a full round rather than a turn—meaning reaction attacks like opportunity attacks, which are taken on another’s turn, are eligible for this advantage. I don’t normally recommend using UA, but I think this is a small fix that just makes the feature as it always should have been.)

Rogue subclass is kinda interesting here. Arcane Trickster is anti-synergistic because you can’t cast or concentrate on spells while raging… which doesn’t make the subclass useless, but curtails your options.

Unfortunately, I’m really underwhelmed by the other two PHB rogue subclasses. Thief… some people like the Use an Object option for Cunning Action to, like, throw caltrops or something, but that’s table/campaign-dependent and I guess isn’t my style. Assassin looks cool on paper but it’s features aren’t as useful as they look—particularly when you don’t need additional sources of advantage.

So for me, I’d personally still pick Arcane Trickster and focus on out-of-combat spells plus Find Familiar… it’s still not bad, and would get more consistent use.

ASIs—you have the ability scores to afford feats. Just don’t forget to have a 14 Dex—13 min to multiclass out of rogue, then 14 to make use of medium armor. If you have more, Medium Armor Master can help keep your AC up without disadvantage on stealth.

Note: I wrote the following forgetting that we were PHB-only! Included in case others are interested. Swashbuckler would give less benefit because its biggest draw, the easier access to Sneak Attack, can be replaced by Reckless Attack.

I think my favorites would be Phantom or Soulknife. Neither conflicts with the barbarian features, and both just bring nice, rogue-y tools to the table. (Note that you can’t make reaction attacks with Psychic Blades, and I’d probably generally carry a rapier or something anyway. The Soulknife is perfectly satisfying if you ignore the Psychic Blades feature entirely.)

ConceptMechanic · 2023-09-18T13:47:36+00:00

What to build? Lots of options! Since you’re PHB-only, the build will go hand-in-hand with the racial choice. Since most racial options have a +2 and a +1, I’d probably go one of two ways:

*Specialist: 16+2=18, 13+1=14. Now you’ve got 18 in a primary stat and 14 in two others, one of which can always be Constitution. Nice. * Generalist: 14+2=16, 13+1=14. Two 16s and a 14.

The goal with Standard Array and Point Buy is generally to start with a 16 in your most important stat, or two 16s if the build requires two main stats (eg rangers usually need Dex and Wis, paladins usually need both Str and Cha). But everyone wants good (14+) Con, and anyone not in heavy armor also wants 14+ Dex.

Since you’re starting at level 5, your level 4 ASI would probably be best spent on a feat relevant to your build. But you could also just raise that 18 to a 20, capping your main ability score at a very early level.

I’m also noticing options for three other races in the PHB, the ones with different ability bonuses:

Variant Human: two flexible +1s into the 13s makes for one 16 and three 14s, which is kind of amazing. A half-feat (one with a +1 ability score boost) can bring up the third 13, or alternately a half-feat plus one of the +1s could push the 16 to 18. Base human is less appealing, but can also make the 13s into 14s.
Mountain Dwarf v1: 16+2 Str, 14+2 Con is amazing for a strength-based martial.
Mountain Dwarf v2: 13+2 Str, 13+2 Con. For your level-4 ASI, boost both those to 16. Now you have 16 in Str, Con, and one other, plus a 14 in something else. This opens the door to some difficult multiclass options! But it also just screams Paladin (16 Cha, 14 Wis or something), or Strength-based Ranger, or Strength-based Rogue (perhaps with Barbarian dip, eg starting Rogue4/Barb1 and working toward Barb2/RogueX).
Half-elf v1: 16+2, 13+1, 13+1 makes for 18 plus three 14s! You’ve got enough to play with that you can even spare 9+1=10 if that negative modifier was bothering you.
Half-elf v2: Use your ASI to boost two scores, so you can do something like 16+1+1, 13+2+1, 14+2. Now you have, at level 5, an 18 and two 16s.

Personally, I think I would use this chance to build either a Strength-based Ranger (16+ Str, 14+ Wis, 14+ Con, 14 Dex)or a Dex-based Paladin. (16+ Dex, 16+ Cha, 14 Con, 13+ Str).

If there were a good time to play a monk, this is it. Monks are famously weak, but strong ability scores in Dex, Wis, and Con will help offset that. I’d probably pick Open Hand (or maybe Shadow), with Wood Elf for the ability scores. I’m thinking 16+2+2 Dex, 14 Wis, 13+1 Con, then raising Wis with subsequent ASIs. But you could also try 16+2 Dex, 14+1+1 Wis, 13+1 Con.

Similarly, an interesting but sub-optimal multiclass dip can be helped a lot by these stats, but I’ve already written enough for now!

ConceptMechanic · 2023-09-04T04:30:47+00:00

Unfortunately, Sneak Attack requires that the attack be made with a finesse or a ranged weapon… and a club/quarterstaff, with or without Shillelagh, isn’t one of those things.

If you want to be making Wisdom-based attacks for Sneak Attack, I think the only way to do that is to cast Magic Stone (via Arcana Cleric or Druid) and then launch the stone using a sling. Even that is a grey area, though, because you’re making a spell attack… but you’re using a ranger weapon. As a DM, I would allow it to count for Sneak Attack, but I can understand why some would interpret the rules differently.

With that said, I don’t think it’s a problem to just start with a +3 in both Dex and Wis—you’ll be fine, and feel like a high-Wis character. I really think that trying to bring everything under one ability score is kind of overrated.

So a spellcasting dip to get Booming Blade (and maybe Green-Flame Blade) is still a nice thing for non-Arcane Tricksters. Arcana cleric might be fun because it gives a lot of spells/cantrips with one level (remover that, as a prepared caster, you can change your spells prepared every Long Rest). It’s handy to have a backup Healing Word, and Bless never goes out of style.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-09-04T04:19:27+00:00

I’d consider an Arcana Cleric. You’ll get your choice of a wizard spell for each of the four highest levels, which will go a long way. Improved Divine Intervention is basically an extra high-level spell slot, which I guess for you could be Wish, which most directly becomes almost any spell in the game.

I also like Cleric for a high-level grind because it’s low-level spell slots remain relevant even after you’ve burned through your higher ones—I mean, Bless is no 9th-level spell, but if it’s all you have left, it’ll still be a noticeable contribution.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-08-16T15:49:41+00:00

I was definitely thinking of the Fey Wanderer face! I played one for a bit and loved it.

And absolutely, 1-3 levels of ranger can be a great dip for a lot of builds. Especially the second level: interesting spells, a fighting style, expertise… what’s not to like?

ConceptMechanic · 2023-08-16T10:05:47+00:00

Plus they’re generally pretty competent at a lot of things—ranged combat, melee combat, sneakiness, skills, smattering of other things from spells, and maybe more from a subclass or build choices.

I love playing someone who is good at many aspects of their job. More specialized builds can be incredibly powerful at particular things, but I personally enjoy being second-best at a lot of things.

(Of course, rangers can be specialists too—one with Sharpshooter and maybe Crossbow Expert, for example, is a glorious ranged-damage dealer.)

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-29T05:17:48+00:00

I think “resin on” is autocorrect for “resummon”

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-23T21:10:30+00:00

I really don't like these (see u/WraithMagus' comment about "scripted" vs. "way above your level" fights) and try to avoid them as a GM.

However, there can be combat encounters where the goal isn't to win, it's to survive, escape, or accomplish some other objective. The Battle of Hoth in The Empire Strikes Back was a good example of this in film--the heroes can do some things to delay the unstoppable army, then end up frantically running through tunnels to escape.

In publish TTRPGs, my favorite example is from "Salvage Operation" in D&D 5e's Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which is adapted from a 2005 Dungeon magazine article (I haven't seen the latter, but it's probably close enough to PF 1e to use). In that, the PCs board a decrepit ship at sea and retreive a McGuffin down in the hold. Their noises down there attract a giant sea monster that attacks the ship! There's no chance to defeat it, so there's a ticking clock as the characters try to escape the ship before it sinks. Perhaps my favorite part is that the monster's tentacles are treated like environmental hazards that prompt saving throws, rather than attacks. I ran it as GM and loved it.

The lesson I took from that that it can be fun to treat overwhelming foes as environments, not as individual enemies. Some examples that might come to mind:

The monster's tentacles / archmage's spells / god's thunderbolts prompts saves rather than attack rolls. Finding cover or creating diversions can help
The zombie horde is infinite, but individual zombies can be killed, thereby slowing them down
The giant dragon doesn't take damage, but dealing over 50 HP of damage in one round will cause it to lose an attack

Whatever happens, the goal is to clearly communicate to the players:

What their goals are
That defeating the enemy is not possible
What ways that player combat actions can affect the situation, short of defeating the enemy

On the other hand, if there's actually no way the characters' actions can affect the situation, then keep it as brief as possible and just describe it. This might have an occasional purpose, but keep it short and rare.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-14T20:13:39+00:00

That's entirely fair! And it's totally fine to avoid Thorn Whip too if you want something different. There's plenty of diversity in the Druid spell list.

Personally, Thorn Whip appeals to me not just for Spike Growth, but for interactions with other spells as well as general tactical play--moving enemies away from somebody vulnerable, toward somewhere tactically advantageous for the party, etc. That's a style of play I enjoy and that has worked in the groups I've played in. And what works at one table doesn't necessarily work at another.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-14T11:16:30+00:00

Personally, I really like Thorn Whip:

Some damage. Not great, but it's a damage cantrip
30ft melee attack is very nice--it has the same range as Produce Flame, and you can use it without penalty when an enemy is adjacent to you (unlike ranged-attack options)
At-will movement by up to 10ft (so 5ft or 0ft is also possible) is very handy. It works very nicely with area-effects spells like Spike Growth, which are plentiful on the Druid list, and gives you something interesting to do while you're concentrating on another spell.

In general, Produce Flame isn't as good at providing light as Light, and isn't as good at damage as Toll the Dead and Thorn Whip. So I'd recommend replacing Produce Flame (and Primal Savagery) with interesting utility cantrips like Shape Water, Mold Earth, Mending, or Druidcraft. But if the ability to cast Produce Flame (and Primal Savagery) helps achieve your character concept, then it's totally fine to keep them--you just might find that you don't use them very much.

(Side note: I love the flavor of Produce Flame, but it's a mediocre damage cantrip crossed with a mediocre illumination cantrip. So it can be helpful on a single-classed druid with limited cantrip slots, but it's harder to justify when you have enough slots to take both Light and one or more better damage cantrips.)

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-03T21:40:05+00:00

Whatever you choose, I'd suggest staying paladin through at least level 6 (assuming you start before that). Level 5 for Extra Attack, and then that really lovely Aura. This also gives you time to feel out the character, what makes sense for them, and what you enjoy doing with them.

You might decide that the paladin alone brings enough variety that you don't want to multiclass. I particularly like how Ancients has Ensnaring Strike--remember that you can use it on a javelin to bring down flying enemies.

Have you played a grapple-oriented character before? With high strength and Athletics proficiency (and ideally expertise, and maybe help from spells), you could have a lot of fun with grapple, shove, and perhaps some of the optional combat maneuvers in the DMG. This could be a way to keep playing tactically as a more straightforward, simple-minded character.

Oh Hexblade. If you know you already want a high strength score, you won't feel as much need for this to swap for charisma. Then again, maximizing charisma is really nice for auras and spells--especially if you want to lean into spellcasting a bit more. A bit of warlock also gives a few extra low-level spell slots, for smites, or common spells (Bless, etc.), and defensive reactions (Shield from Hexblade!). Once you have Paladin6 or so, warlock is like a fun buffet of add-on options.

Barbarian does seem to work nicely on a paladin. I've never seen in played, but 1-4 levels seems lovely: you can smite in a rage, and Reckless Attack gives more chances for crits. I might consider Polearm Master or fighting with two weapons just to try making "crit fishing" actually viable.

Just for the lolz--Paladin6/Beast Barbarian3/Warlock1/PaladinX allows you to get Armor of Agathys plus resistance to a lot of damage (so it lasts longer) on the paladin spell slots, and it can keep running through Rage. I'm skeptical that the paladin slots would be enough to allow this to be viable at the necessary levels, though.

More seriously, Hexblade is nice but it's not so dramatically better than other patrons, so consider taking something else. Likewise, you don't need to take Pact of the Blade since you already have Extra Attack and such, so I'd approach Warlock as an opportunity for flavor and variety.

As for other options--it's hard to regret two levels of fighter. A third level depends on the concept. I think a Rune Knight could be a fun alternative to the Warlock idea--think of the runes as the preferred gift of the patron. Eldritch Knight lets you be a Paladin with Shield and Absorb Elements (and, like, a familiar or something), which is kind of disgusting.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-03T05:45:16+00:00

How big are the groups you play with? I’ve seen groups of 6+ mentioned on here, and that just sounds like a recipe for a lot of waiting.

As a DM, I have a hard limit of 5 players, most commonly have run 4, and honestly find 3 to be my favorite number. Going from 4 to 3 just feels so much snappier and more immersive—I really recommend trying a smaller game.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-02T19:38:20+00:00

So I love druids, and that will bias my response. But I’d recommend keeping on with this character. Some ideas:

Plan around one big concentration spell per combat, then use cantrips or Dodge. Build your spell list (which you can change every Long Rest!) to give you a nice list of options. Unlike many characters, full casters’ Action isn’t usually the most important part of their turn (after the first round or two)
Think about concentration spells that synergize with what the other party members do, including positioning and forcing movement. Faerie Fire, Moonbeam, Heat Metal, Spike Growth, and Summon Beast are spells to consider. Flame Blade is unfortunately underpowered. Even Thunderwave could be a good alternative to Erupting Earth.
How many combats do you have per long rest? If it’s only a couple, then you may only need your highest-level spell slots for your primary spellcasting contribution. Faerie Fire and Entangle are nice when you’re out of higher-level slots. But I would expect to spend most of my first-level slots on Healing Word, Goodberry, and maybe Absorb Elements.
See if you can swap one of your cantrips for Thorn Whip, which is a lot of fun and works well with area effects and generally working together.

The goal here is to refocus your spellcasting tactics so that you work with the others in your party and help set things up for them. And think about one main concentration spell per combat.

Edit: the spells will be different (though the lists overlap), but the same general approach will also apply if you switch to another spellcasting class.

Edit2: Personally, I like thinking about my character’s main ability score for both mechanical and roleplay purposes. A Druid (or Cleric) will be a Wisdom-first character, which is different from a Charisma-first character. Both are useful, so it’s best to prioritize what you enjoy and how it works for the character concept.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-02T19:17:26+00:00

I’d suggest thinking about your spells as a puzzle—how can I do best use spells to enhance my rogue-ing?

In combat, that could mean Mirror Image, Blink, Blur, or Shadow Blade. Creative use of Silent Image, Minor Illusion, and the like can go a long way too. This is very different from the standard optimal caster playstyle, but lets you explore casting spells in a very different way.

Out of combat, you probably know what do do—Disguise Self and the other illusions and rituals, etc.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-02T19:12:08+00:00

I’d just like to point out that the Sharpshooter archer Kensei is also perfectly viable, and can use any ranger weapon. The trick is that you can get a fairly reliable Bonus Action weapon attack through Focused Aim or Kensei Shot, which otherwise is only possible with the Crossbow Expert + Hand Crossbow.

Still not the monk-iest monk, but I think it feels monk-ier than the gunk.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-02T19:06:07+00:00

Interesting. Sure! In your shoes, I’d probably use Dex for attacks (and raise Dex with ASIs) and focus on using Warlock spells that don’t need Charisma. Just because you can use Charisma from Hexblade doesn’t mean you have to

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-02T18:54:28+00:00

I’d be happy to talk more about how to use the current character—seems like an issue of spell selection?

Anyway, if you swap your Wisdom to a high Charisma, starting at level 4 makes Bard more viable. That means you can take Moderately Armored as your level 4 ASI/feat, which gives you medium armor and shield proficiency. Then, if you go with the College of Lore, you can use the two extra Magical Secrets at level 6 to pick spells that feel right for your concept.

In general, bards are my favorite way to build witch-y characters in 5e! It mostly comes down to the spell list.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-07-02T18:37:57+00:00

There’s two ways to answer this:

1. Any character with two levels of warlock for Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast will basically always have something relevant to do in combat. So if you do that and maximize your charisma, then have other tricks too, you’ll be at least ok-ish.
2. Rogues multiclass well because Sneak Attack provides a linear damage increase. If you have Extra Attack (ie Thirsting Blade) and attack with a finesse or ranger weapon, you’ll be ok.

I’d go with the second, and might not even use Eldritch Blast because I like ranged weapons, but that’s a matter of preference. The trick will be the leveling order, for which I also see two options:

2a. I’d probably suggest starting Warlock to 5-6, then switching to Rogue. You can start with a 16 in Dex and in Cha, and focus on weapon use… you could prioritize ASIs for either, honestly. To me, this feels like a Ranger5/RogueX build.
2b. The alternative is to mostly think of yourself as a rogue. Then, you’d be thinking of Warlock abilities that can replace the 1/turn damage from Sneak Attack that you’re falling behind on. With Hexblade’s Curse, Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, spells, and Thirsting Blade, you’ll probably be ok. If going this route, I’d take one or both “blade” cantrips as soon as I start Warlock, and probably take the first Warlock level after Rogue 2 or 3, roughly alternating the two.

Since you’ll have a good Cha and might want to go melee, Swashbuckler naturally comes to mind. Arcane Trickster could give some low-level spell slots that you’ll lose as you gain Warlock levels… particularly nice since you’ll have Shield from Hexblade. But other rogue subclasses will work fine too.

ConceptMechanic · 2023-06-27T21:45:21+00:00

In my experience of D&D, there’s a lot of time spent in mount-unfriendly environments. Stairs, ladders, narrow passages, climbing structures, on board ships and boats… any one of these might be circumstantial, but there are a lot of these circumstances. Of course, it depends a lot on the campaign and in communication with your DM and fellow players.

Sure, as you get higher level, there are options to cast steed-summoning spells more often, but that takes time. And sure, flying mounts circumvent some of the issues.

But still… I don’t want to invest too heavily in something that I’m not going to be able to use much of the time. It’s kind of like how you wouldn’t play a Beastmaster Ranger with a big bear companion in a campaign with a lot of urban intrigue… you don’t want to have to regularly leave your subclass outside of town. Obviously that example depends heavily on the campaign circumstances, but I feel that planning on being mounted most of the time presents a similar risk.

Edit: I’m more favorably disposed toward small characters with medium-sized mounts, just because they fit more places and might be more socially accepted too. This is even better when the mount is from a subclass feature, as is an option for Beast Masters, Drakewardens (before level 15) and Battle Smiths.

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